[Tuning] Pantheons - Round 2!

[balinte]

To be clear I don't like this idea. I think this would increase the cost of founding a religion (as in a race situation literally everyone would do it and thus you would need to as well) but it would not solve the problem. More Faith-y pantheons would still win the race, and losing would be even worse. (So you would almost certainly need to give up if you failed and wasted producing anything in all your cities for 20 turns.)

Yeah if you want religion (which is obviously benefical long term) u should sacrifice your early game production securing it.
Ignoring religion altogether and going faith light pantheons results in better early, u spend your production other than faith

Comparison:
Pagans early cuz not faith yield pantheons+ early prod not spent on faith)
Religious late (thats why u pushed for religion so far)

Not founding would no longer be that much of a disadvantage compared to founding

 

[CrazyG]

I think a big issue for not founding is just how long it takes to get a religion. You lose so many potential yields waiting for religion to spread. God forbid you neighbors don't found either, or India founds next door and you hit Renaissance before his religion spreads to a single city; the newly added pantheon counter-pressure is really bad for non founders. I've declared war just to steal a missionary with a scout before. What if there was an option in the discuss portion with AI to request missionaries?

Goddess of Beauty is awful for not founding, no wonder is strong enough to compensate the pantheon giving 0 relevant yields. and the increased cost for existing wonders makes building several very difficult. Most of the classical era wonders either require finishing a policy tree or have a low policy cost relative to tech cost anyways. The strongest wonder is probably Oracle but building it removes the point of having this pantheon. Oh and if that missionary I desperately want comes along mid-wonder I won't be able to finish building it

 

[CrazyG]

Sorry to double post, but would it be possible to diversify which pantheons the AI chooses? Because right now certain pantheons are within the first 4 to go basically every game and thus humans can only get them if India or Byzantium. Hunt goes almost every game (the AI seems to pick it if they have just 1 deer in the capital) and even with stonehenge I can't get it in time.

 

[balinte]

I think earth mother is at least doubtable even for the ethiops. adding it something extra would really help

 

[Gokudo01]

Sorry to double post, but would it be possible to diversify which pantheons the AI chooses? Because right now certain pantheons are within the first 4 to go basically every game and thus humans can only get them if India or Byzantium. Hunt goes almost every game (the AI seems to pick it if they have just 1 deer in the capital) and even with stonehenge I can't get it in time.

you re right, I think I've never got springtime even with maya.

 

[ElliotS]

I think earth mother is at least doubtable even for the ethiops. adding it something extra would really help

I've said this for a while. 100% agree.

 

[Gazebo]

Sorry to double post, but would it be possible to diversify which pantheons the AI chooses? Because right now certain pantheons are within the first 4 to go basically every game and thus humans can only get them if India or Byzantium. Hunt goes almost every game (the AI seems to pick it if they have just 1 deer in the capital) and even with stonehenge I can't get it in time.

Diversify = sub optimal choices. People moan about the AI doing this with policies, and used to moan about it with pantheons. BUT if you give me a list of the 3 most common pantheons that are picked I'll look at the scoring.

 

[Txurce]

Diversify = sub optimal choices. People moan about the AI doing this with policies, and used to moan about it with pantheons. BUT if you give me a list of the 3 most common pantheons that are picked I'll look at the scoring.

Asking for more sub-optimal choices runs counter to the purpose of having multiple difficulty levels. Besides, it doesn't reward good play -- you're just hoping to get lucky because enough AI went sub-optimal in your particular game.

 

[ElliotS]

I don't know, the AI seems to over-value some. The AI grabs God of All-Creation real early every game, and even sometimes founds with it. That makes no sense obviously, and runs entirely counter to it's purpose.

Also does the AI take the player into account when choosing pantheons?

I was playing Songhai and France chose the River one, despite that Jungle would have been MUCH better for them. It was very silly, unless they were looking to deny me. (Then it was just pretty silly.)

They ended up founding with it, but I took their religion so it worked out better for me in the end.

Also the Markets one seems to get taken early every game despite being garbage. It's nice for me as a player, but seems weird that the AI loves to pick such a bad pantheon.

I'm playing on Deity BTW, so the AIs should make the best choices possible.

Secondly I think Festivals needs to become +2,+2,+1 per lux. It's almost as hard as God-King to found with right now, so making it a bit easier to found and nerfing the benefits seems to make sense.

 

[CrazyG]

Diversify = sub optimal choices. People moan about the AI doing this with policies, and used to moan about it with pantheons. BUT if you give me a list of the 3 most common pantheons that are picked I'll look at the scoring.

Thats quite a old post, I think the AI has been doing better lately.

One pantheon that always goes quickly is earth mother and I would argue its normally a sub-optimal choice. Notably I had a game as England where the Maya choose this and didn't research mining till the classical era. A very strong pantheon the AI rarely chooses is Commerce. I understand the desire to keep AI functioning well, but on the other hand currently a commerce strategy is very good partially just because the pantheon will be there, which I can't say about God King or God of All

 

[Dawnpromise]

Thats quite a old post, I think the AI has been doing better lately.

One pantheon that always goes quickly is earth mother and I would argue its normally a sub-optimal choice. Notably I had a game as England where the Maya choose this and didn't research mining till the classical era. A very strong pantheon the AI rarely chooses is Commerce. I understand the desire to keep AI functioning well, but on the other hand currently a commerce strategy is very good partially just because the pantheon will be there, which I can't say about God King or God of All

This raises a interesting question: Would it be possible to have the AI weigh pantheon choice based on technology research? For example adding weight to Hunting/Sea pantheons if they research trapping or adding weight to earth mother once mining is research.

 

[CrazyG]

This raises a interesting question: Would it be possible to have the AI weigh pantheon choice based on technology research? For example adding weight to Hunting/Sea pantheons if they research trapping or adding weight to earth mother once mining is research.

I assume they have some logic for it, it might just be that Maya had logic to rush mathematics that overruled it.

Another tech related problem is AI in jungle Cocoa or Citrus taking the plantations pantheon.

 

[Gazebo]

I assume they have some logic for it, it might just be that Maya had logic to rush mathematics that overruled it.

Another tech related problem is AI in jungle Cocoa or Citrus taking the plantations pantheon.

The AI does weight for tech, but it also weights for predictive tech. So the AI may think it is going to grab calendar + iron working shortly, but then something else diverts the tech AI. The AI isn't really a singular entity - it is more like a many-headed hydra.

G

 

[CrazyG]

So the AI may think it is going to grab calendar + iron working shortly

There is no such thing as getting calendar +iron working shortly.

When choosing a pantheon I don't view plantations locked by jungle as benefitting springtime, neither should the AI. Goddess of Renewal rarely gets taken by AI but is pretty good, much better than springtime in a jungle start

 

[Gazebo]

There is no such thing as getting calendar +iron working shortly.

When choosing a pantheon I don't view plantations locked by jungle as benefitting springtime, neither should the AI. Goddess of Renewal rarely gets taken by AI but is pretty good, much better than springtime in a jungle start

Shortly, for the AI, is usually around 20-30 turns away. Yeah, it is longer, but that's how the AI thinks.

G

 

[Owlbebach]

Secondly I think Festivals needs to become +2,+2,+1 per lux. It's almost as hard as God-King to found with right now, so making it a bit easier to found and nerfing the benefits seems to make sense.

I totally disagree, i think festivals should be +1,+1,+2 (yes, even less then right now). Thing is that you should not found with festivals at all unless you play for religious civ. Otherwise it snowballs to hard later in the game. Recently I managed to found religion with festivals playing for Austria - thing like that should not happen at all. And as you know, I play deity too. (Btw, i encourage you to try Austria into authoruty -> Aesthetics -> Industry -> tourism victory. Its an incredible combo)

And Goddess of Nature is still OP, even if you are not Inca

 

[Gokudo01]

I totally disagree, i think festivals should be +1,+1,+2 (yes, even less then right now). Thing is that you should not found with festivals at all unless you play for religious civ. Otherwise it snowballs to hard later in the game. Recently I managed to found religion with festivals playing for Austria - thing like that should not happen at all. And as you know, I play deity too. (Btw, i encourage you to try Austria into authoruty -> Aesthetics -> Industry -> tourism victory. Its an incredible combo)

And Goddess of Nature is still OP, even if you are not Inca

Something I've never understood is how works festival : you get the bonus for each unique luxury or each luxury because if it's for each unique luxury I fail to understand how it 's broken even with 20 luxuries gotten via trade/cities/Great admiral late in the game
.
Explain me

 

[Owlbebach]

Something I've never understood is how works festival : you get the bonus for each unique luxury or each luxury because if it's for each unique luxury I fail to understand how it 's broken even with 20 luxuries gotten via trade/cities/Great admiral late in the game
.
Explain me

You get bonus for every unique luxury. If you check trade options carefully - its easy to trade way more than 20, and you can easily get it in Medival (i had 40+ unique luxuries around turn 220, standard speed). Currently with +2 gold you basically can trade 1 or 2 gpt for 1 faith and 2 culture, thats insane. I usually have 40-50 culture per turn from pantheon in medival. It is about as much as you get from every other sources together, thats not normal. I think it is OP because it gives you MUCH more culture compared any other pantheon (except godess of nature). And if you do not have right set of starting resources (those that can be improved with mine or camp) - you just do not take festivals and thats it.

However i've just realized that festivals become OP only on big maps. I never play maps smaller than large, its just too easy, even on deity.

 

[CrazyG]

Something I've never understood is how works festival : you get the bonus for each unique luxury or each luxury because if it's for each unique luxury I fail to understand how it 's broken even with 20 luxuries gotten via trade/cities/Great admiral late in the game
.
Explain me

If you have 1 gold, 1 silver, and 1 jade, you get 3 groups of yields
If you have 5 gold, 20 silver, and 300 jade, you still only get 3 groups of yields

Its really good on the 43 civ map, but in general I find it balanced

 

[Owlbebach]

If you have 1 gold, 1 silver, and 1 jade, you get 3 groups of yields
If you have 5 gold, 20 silver, and 300 jade, you still only get 3 groups of yields

Its really good on the 43 civ map, but in general I find it balanced

Dunno, i managed to found for Austria around turn 80, standard speed, deity. I had 2 Lapis and a Pearl as my starting resources. And that was something like continents, i had only 4 neighbours!

Edit: ofcourse i was investing in shrines in every city and i was checking available resources every turn.