1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[Tuning] Pantheons - Round 2!

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    7,230
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Pantheons should be revised again. Making all food resources reveal on tier 1 techs changes many pantheons.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  2. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,299
    But it doesn't. The whole reason behind the tech changes is exactly because the gamble of resource-based pantheons rarely pays off.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    7,230
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    What I mean is that now the pantheons I thought that were too risky, are a little more doable, and perhaps the yields are a bit too much in some cases (perhaps not). Luxury resources on jungles are still a no-no, but at least now you know in advance.
     
  4. avl8

    avl8 Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    You never get this one if you do not have enough tundra resources tiles.
    You just get another pantheon which is totally fine. And there are always plenty of good options in VP!

    But if you have tundra start PLUS at least 2 resource tiles in each city spot... Well, it is just overpowered. Especially with Authority policy tree.
    Deers, sheep, mining resources, stones, iron - all of these just become imbalanced tiles during ancient era.


    Imagine regular tundra deer: 2f 1p + 1f (camp) +1faith +2c +2p (GotSaS) = 9 yields in ancient era!
    Or regular tundra hill sheep: 1f 2p +1f +1g (pasture) +1faith +2c +2p (GotSaS) = 10 yields in ancient era!
    10, Karl!

    No other pantheon beliefs can do such a thing!

    I think this one is clearly overpowered at the moment.

    I suggest lowering either production bonus (-1p) or culture bonus (-1c). Or both.
     
  5. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    478
    Location:
    Yuggoth
    Your suggestion would make that pantheon completely useless. Yes, it's OP in the beginning (and on several tiles, especially as Indonesia), but at the same time, it is very limited. After all, you don't get many tundra tiles and sooner rather than later you will move towards equator. Yes, tundra start gets you almost guaranteed religion with this pantheon, but at the same time, you have plenty of useless tiles and even some arctic probably. I think it's a good balance.
    The same can be said about (a bit weaker +2f +2g + 2food) Spirit of the desert.
     
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,382
    Yeah, it turns all Tundra resource tiles into almost-Moai, it's broken. At 1C 1P 1F it'd be terrible though, no one would ever take it. It's hard to balance these yields as Production and Culture are arguably always the most useful, but however 1C1F1P would be okay if it got something else, like +2 Faith for all cities settled on or adjacent to Tundra. Gives a solid headstart and is still the go-to on tundra starts, but will not scale out of control.

    Desert pantheon however is okay. Deserts are less frequent and more scattered on typical mapscripts, and the yields granted are just Gold, Food, Faith (gold, food <<< culture, production) so it can stay at 2/2/2, though I still never take it - deserts are too rare for me, and when the mapscript goes insane with them - it usually puts plains + resource in the middle of desert just to spite me.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    7,230
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    I'd like to review pantheons again, but not just a single letter rating. Something like:
    - Scalability. Does this pantheon increase yields as game progresses? As more cities are added to the empire?
    - Versatility. Does this pantheon sinergize with a specific play style/civ uniques or does it allow more freedom? Does it require many techs?
    - Risk / Potential recognition. Is it easy to know if the pantheon is worthy when the time to pick one arrives? (thanks for moving base resources to lvl1 techs). Does it depend on random/unknown factors?
    - Founding chance. Does it help to found a religion? Otherwise, does it help to usurp one?

    For me, the worst pantheon is this which relies on plantations, seeing that most plantations resources are over forest/jungle, and that requires at least two distant level 2 techs, plus chopping, before a single plantation can be set, while suffering from severe Crime unhappiness. It seems that it's better to focus on markets, gain extra gold per city, use it to maintain a larger army, and during a few turns, enjoy extra culture for those plantations until the usurped religion is spread. Even at that, only 2 gold per market may not be enough to justify it. Prioritizing markets already give a good sum of gold, and some units can be bought rather than produced, but the extra 2 gold is still 35 turns for an extra warrior in each city. I am purposely ignoring plantation faith yields, as they seem to never arrive in time to be accountable.

    God of the Sea has been really enhanced. Being able to see if there are enough nearby fishes with just Trap, makes the choice of pantheon less risky for this pantheon. It scales well, as long as you keep settling in the coast (it doesn't increase yields, but it's easy to find more sea resources), sinergize with Polynesia most, and with Trade Route and Religion focused civs that benefits from settling on the coast, but any civ and play style can benefit of it. Three fishes pretty much guarantees founding a religion. Still the extra food for coastal seems unnecessary, not the yield that is most needed (sea resources and lighthouses give essentially food). The extra growth makes it harder to settle many cities and reaching more fishes due to unhappiness. The production commitment to fishing boats (instead of workers) reduces either infrastructure or army size in early turns (so it delays conquest but grants a religion). All in all, the pros are bigger than the cons.
     
  8. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    62
    So I think the mountain pantheon needs a bit of work. 1c/1f per two mountains within three tiles of the city is how it currently works. This means, that you can take your first settler, place it in the middle of a crazy large mountain range, and get a large amount of faith and culture. Bonus points if inca, its laughably broken in some cases. Ive enhanced my religeon 30 or 40 turns faster than with any other pantheon; the only way ive gotten close is with the aztecs on a great lake start with raging barbs. In addition, mountains can count for multiple cities, so clustering cities around a range is perfectly viable.

    The main difference between it and other similar pantheons is it doesn't require any tile to be worked by a citizen, or to be improved. This means that you get the full benefit right away after founding. The other terrain based pantheons (god of open skies, forest, lakes) require the terrain to be worked. This also means that the same terrain cannot be used for multiple cities.

    I understand that requiring mountains to be worked is ridiculous; only the inca could use it. Could we maybe put a cap on it for how many citizens are in the city? Like, "1 culture and 1 faith per two mountains within three tiles of the city, limited by number of citizens in the city." This would I think bring it in line with the other terrain pantheons.
     
  9. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    845
    Yeah this is why I find open sky and renewal to be kinda weak. Being forced to work tiles for yields doesn't work well because early in the game you can't improve all those tiles and later you want to work great person tiles or specialists.
     
  10. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2016
    Messages:
    488
    Maybe it could just provide a bonus to tiles next to mountains instead? +1 Faith for every tile next to a Mountain and +1 or +2 Culture for a city settled within 2 tiles of a Mountain or something like that.

    I still think Mountain and NW should be split into 2 pantheons though.
     
  11. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    478
    Location:
    Yuggoth
    After changes to goddess of springtime, I tried that as Arabia (to get better markets) and even thou I got starts next to wine and tobacco, still failed to establish religion. Twice. And was beelining calendar and trade and building bazaar first and always building bazaar first in new cities (which may be wrong as shrine is cheaper now that I think of it). Still, before you start generating any faith, you're usually out of race :/
     
  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,861
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Depends on the difficulty, your civ, your opponents, natural wonders, stonehenge and if you went tradition for the extra 2 faith.

    If your opponents are all going tradition and you're not, they get faith-y natural wonders, build stonehenge or get really faith-y pantheons, sure, but it's not impossible to get a religion with that pantheon, even without stonehenge or natural wonders.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    7,230
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    You might be right in that this pantheon is too strong. I'd never pick this if there are few mountains nearby, so typical case has 6-10 mountains in range, which can be even better, as the following cities can be settled in the other side of the mountaineous area and share tiles (they count twice or even three times if they are in range of 2-3 cities). OTOH, a region like this doesn't have many other good things, unless you are Pacal. The only fair way to nerf it I can think of, would be to require these mountains to be within city owned territory, but I'm not sure if I'd take it again if it were to be nerfed.
     
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,861
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    I think it's fine. It's one of the highest faith generating pantheons, but it has no scaling whatsoever. What you get is what you get. 4f/4c per city is crazy early game, but is useless come mid-evil era. it also isn't useful when you expand. You're always going to have plantations, or camps, but only some places have tons of mountains. Finally while the yeilds don't require the tile to be worked, they DO mean that you have otherwise useless tiles in your territory. (Unless you're Inca.) The faith and culture are great early, but only being able to work half the tiles around your cities later isn't as good.

    I don't think capping it to citizens in a city would be terrible, but I do think it's unnecessary.

    If it must be changed I'd make it less lopsided, and offer 0.25f and 0.25c per mountain, scaling with era. That'll bring it more in line with other beliefs.
     
  15. intelli

    intelli Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    103
    God of War definitely isn't a C, at least not if you play as the Aztecs and Jaguar spam yourself to an enhanced religion before anyone else has even started out.
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,861
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    I think the Aztecs need it the least. It has very good faith output potential, but no yeild benefits. The Aztecs already get enough of a faith lead that they should found first religion without help of a really faith-y pantheon, and therefore would be better served by a better scaling pantheon life god-king or the tundra one.
     
  17. intelli

    intelli Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    103
    Don't really get the obsession with scaling, especially when you can just whip up a massive advantage by the classical era... both my neighbours fully converted and a reformation belief already. Besides. God of War does scale with the Aztecs as you pretty much need to be constantly switching between attritional wars to take advantage of their UA. Also taking a tundra pantheon with a jungle start?
     
  18. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,861
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    I've seen Jungle and Tundra in a small enough area before, but obviously that's a rare one. The obsession isn't with scaling, more with getting more culture.
     
  19. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2016
    Messages:
    488
    I hate to say it since it's my favorite, but I think Goddess of Wisdom could use a nerf. As-is, it provides both excellent initial Faith for founding (instant +2 per city with no building/improvement/terrain requirements is better than pretty much anything else in that dept) and excellent Faith scaling if you're at least moderately Science-focused, the only weakness is a lack of non-Faith yields. I think it would be good to split the initial Faith to +1 per city and +1 from Councils or something along those lines. Right now it's my go-to if I don't have something else amazing and I don't think I've ever missed founding with it.

    I'd still also like to see Goddess of Beauty reduce Wonder policy requirement by 1 rather than give you a production bonus. Right now it's just too risky to take even on Egypt, the AIs can easily get ahead of you in Culture and extra Production isn't going to help you get the Wonders.
     
  20. Forsti

    Forsti Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Finland
    I really don't understand the rationale behind this change. Even when festivals gave just 1 faith, I considered it so powerful, that I made the decision to never take it. Now the yields are on an absurd level. I have seen the argument that festivals doesn't scale well, which is far from the truth. Just take a look at these pictures that show, how quickly you can get this pantheon to work:

    Spoiler pics :






    So it's turn 77 (standard speed) and I'm getting 20 faith, 20 culture and 20 gpt to my capital. This is a lot more than you can get with some pantheons at the end of the game. I only have 3 cities and I haven't yet improved 1 salt at Getz and 1 sugar and 1 piece of spices from Salzburg. Let's look how hard it is to get similar yields with other pantheons that give similar yields:

    • Ancestor worship: You need more than 60 citizens to get 20 faith and 10 councils to get 20 culture. You wouldn't still get the gold
    • Earth mother: If you worked 20 mines with improved resources, you'd get 20 faith and 20 gold. For each monument you'd get 2 production, which is a yield that Festivals doesn't produce but you don't get extra culture.
    • God of commerce: With 7 city connections you'd get 21 faith and 14 gold. For every 30 gold you produce, you get 1 faith. At this point of the game, you wouldn't get more than 1 faith from the scaler and you'd still be missing the culture.
    • God of craftsmen: With 7 cities with specialist, you'd get 21 faith. If you had 20 quarries or stone works, you'd get 20 gold and production. You can't get culture.
    • God of the open sky: Working 20 pastures gives you 20 gold and 20 faith. You'd also need to work more than 40 grassland or plains tiles without hills or features to get 20 culture.
    • Goddess of nature: If you manage to work 2 natural wonders, you'd need to have at least 32 mountains within 3 tiles from your cities to get 22 faith and 20 culture. You wouldn't get gold though.
    • Goddess of protection: You need 19 walls or barracks to get 20 faith and culture. You don't get gold but your units heal +10 hp in your territory.
    • Goddess of springtime: You need 10 markets to get 20 faith and you must work 20 plantations to get 20 gold and culture
    • Goddess of the hunt: You need to work 20 camps to get 20 faith, culture and food. You won't get gold but the food will compensate.
    As you can see, there is no way you can get anything close to similar yields with any other pantheon in a long time. There are 21 luxuries in the world so I would indeed get even more yields from Festivals later on in the game. With an admiral I could even go beyond the 21 luxuries. On a large or a huge map other pantheons might reach somewhat similar yields at some point of the game but on standard sized map there is at the moment only 1 pantheon you should ever consider taking.

    I guess it's worth mentioning that Indonesia in particular appreciates this pantheon.
     

Share This Page