[Tuning] Pantheons - Round 2!

[infidel88]

My feeling with some play of Lake pantheon. It is a great pantheon if you have very early pantheon, like Spain or India and get plenty of lakes nearby. With 4 population city, you can get extra 4 and each new city can get some . However, this pantheon doesn't scale well. In fact, it is downscaling, as with time, you will get rid of marshes (unless you're Netherlands). It doesnt get almost any useful buildings and with time you won't work any of your pantheon tiles.
Conclusion - I thought initial idea of 1 to lakes (or whatever it was) seemed OP, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[ElliotS]

Conclusion - I thought initial idea of 1 to lakes (or whatever it was) seemed OP, but now I'm not so sure.

I NEVER suggested AND . In fact I wanted to make it ONLY 1 to Lakes/Marshes and +2/ +1 to cities on rivers. I think that people had good points that lakes would be OP early, but my idea that that it would fall off hard.

Then again that was before we decided to nerf most of the culture heavy pantheons. Now I can agree that it would provide too much early.

You guys need to stop suggesting giving pantheons more than 2-3 types of yields, especially good ones. should be mutually exclusive mostly IMO. Weaknesses and problems are good and make interesting gameplay.

Look at earth mother. People keep wanting to add food, but that defeats the purposeful weakness of the pantheon. If Pantheons don't have a weakness you need to work around or things you need to go out of your way to do, the gameplay is boring and thoughtless.

"Oh i have mines. Click the mine pantheon and play normally."

I think it's much more interesting to need to find ways to get good amount of food while still working mines. It provides interesting choices on what to work and when. How much growth you'll gimp for yields now. What techs you prioritize. It will also change your settling strategy more than if it had food, because you'll need to care about more than just having enough mines.

Good pantheon design should change the way you play slightly. That's why I dislike Sun-God granting Gold. The biggest weakness should be that you're going to need to build granaries which will drain your gold, and thus you need to find a way around that.

I think we need to figure out what we want from pantheons before we can figure out numbers, because we're talking past each other quite often right now.

 

[Owlbebach]

I think it's much more interesting to need to find ways to get good amount of food while still working mines. It provides interesting choices on what to work and when. How much growth you'll gimp for yields now. What techs you prioritize. It will also change your settling strategy more than if it had food, because you'll need to care about more than just having enough mines.

Good pantheon design should change the way you play slightly. That's why I dislike Sun-God granting Gold. The biggest weakness should be that you're going to need to build granaries which will drain your gold, and thus you need to find a way around that.

I think we need to figure out what we want from pantheons before we can figure out numbers, because we're talking past each other quite often right now.

I couldn't agree more

 

[Gazebo]

New pantheons have been out for three days and people already wanting to scrap them. Patience people. Based on AI play pantheons are more balanced now than ever before.

G

 

[tu_79]

However, it doesn't matter if you don't get many yields in total. Look at God-King.

Anyway, let's test current iteration for a couple of weeks.

 

[Owlbebach]

New pantheons have been out for three days and people already wanting to scrap them. Patience people. Based on AI play pantheons are more balanced now than ever before.

G

Thats right. But there are two things:
1) Pantheons are balanced for AI vs AI test games. But i really do not need to try all of them to understand that some of them are unplayable in human's hands (at least on Standard/Large map)
Those are:

• Earth Mother (1per 3 is good for AI cause it has much more population. Previously everyone agreed that it was too weak with +2 from Monuments, now it is even worse)
• Goddess of Festivals (works only with Netherlands. You can't trade resources if you do not get gold from it! You can trade 3 or 4 Luxuries, maximum 5, and thats it)
  
• Spirit of the Desert (it must have +2, because it is a Pantheon that strongly affects the way you settle your cities. AI if okay if it looses it, human CAN'T loose it)
  
• Springtime (it starts too slow, plantaitions are too late, it does not give enough faith. You can't found with it, so it does not work as a long-term pantheon, but you can't use it as a short-term bonus either)

2) Pantheons might be very balanced, but their design might be bad. After all - the most balanced situation is when all pantheons are the same.
Pantheons that are ungly from my point of view:

• Ancestor Worship vs Wisdom (they both are okay, but they do pretty much the same. And please do not change Wisdom, its perfect!)
• God of Sun (might be okay in terms of strength, but it is VERY contraversial and give to much different yields)

 

[thecraftybee]

If some mined luxes can be changed to quarries, is it possible to even out most of the resources so they are balanced in terms of numbers.

Farms: Wheat; Luxes - Citrus, Olives, Cocoa, Sugar, Coffee, Tea, Wine (1 and 7)
Quarries: Stone; Luxes - Amber, Marble, Lapis, Jade; (1 and 4) +1 Strategic
Boats: Fish; Luxes - Coral, Whales, Crabs, Pearls (1 and 4)
Plantations: Bananas; Luxes - Cotton, Silk, Perfume, Tobacco, Incense, Spices (1 and 6) +3 Indonesian
Camps: Bison, Deer; Luxes - Truffles, Ivory, Furs, Dyes (2 and 4)
Mines: nil; Luxes - Copper, Gold, Silver, Gems, Salt (0 and 5) +3 Strategic

To better even them out, make Cedar or Oak from JFD's EXCE a bonus resource on forests and move Olive and Citrus from Farms and Silk and Incense from Plantations to a new Lumber Mill. That way, all resources would then have 5-6 luxes and bonuses associated with it. Maybe change Copper or Salt to a bonus resource instead of a lux.

This would help with Sun-God as the pantheon bonus could be spread over more tiles.

 

[Owlbebach]

If some mined luxes can be changed to quarries, is it possible to even out most of the resources so they are balanced in terms of numbers.
To better even them out, make Cedar or Oak from JFD's EXCE a bonus resource on forests and move Olive and Citrus from Farms and Silk and Incense from Plantations to a new Lumber Mill. That way, all resources would then have 5-6 luxes and bonuses associated with it. Maybe change Copper or Salt to a bonus resource instead of a lux.

This would help with Sun-God as the pantheon bonus could be spread over more tiles.

1) why this thread?
2) a lot of work without any obvious need and result
3) will take forever to balance

 

[Txurce]

Thats right. But there are two things:
1) Pantheons are balanced for AI vs AI test games. But i really do not need to try all of them to understand that some of them are unplayable in human's hands (at least on Standard/Large map)
Those are:

• Earth Mother (1per 3 is good for AI cause it has much more population. Previously everyone agreed that it was too weak with +2 from Monuments, now it is even worse)
• Goddess of Festivals (works only with Netherlands. You can't trade resources if you do not get gold from it! You can trade 3 or 4 Luxuries, maximum 5, and thats it)
  
• Spirit of the Desert (it must have +2, because it is a Pantheon that strongly affects the way you settle your cities. AI if okay if it looses it, human CAN'T loose it)
  
• Springtime (it starts too slow, plantaitions are too late, it does not give enough faith. You can't found with it, so it does not work as a long-term pantheon, but you can't use it as a short-term bonus either)

2) Pantheons might be very balanced, but their design might be bad. After all - the most balanced situation is when all pantheons are the same.
Pantheons that are ungly from my point of view:

• Ancestor Worship vs Wisdom (they both are okay, but they do pretty much the same. And please do not change Wisdom, its perfect!)
• God of Sun (might be okay in terms of strength, but it is VERY contraversial and give to much different yields)

Half the posters on VP have suggestions. Gazebo responds to them (explicitly or implicitly) and constantly offers betas as a result. But as he and others have requested, there's supposed to be a decent interval for experimentation by everyone... which you consistently ignore, because the mod keeps on not meeting whatever expectations you have in that moment.

"Unplayable" is a typical overstatement. Goddess of Festivals also works very well with Indonesia, and can be good enough with the right start. SoD is a good pantheon, but you can't afford to fail at founding if you choose it? Then don't fail... and if you do, all it means is that you got beat.

Now, on to "ugly." Wisdom is "perfect," so I guess you're saying Ancestor Worship is ugly because it "does pretty much the same." And God of the Sun works, but is ugly because it's "very controversial."

It sounds like you want what you want, and aren't going to stop complaining until you get it... which means you're never going to stop complaining.

 

[Deadstarre]

the most balanced situation is when all pantheons are the same.

thats how melee promotions shock and drill were resolved. balanced! done

honestly the only thing that really stands to benefit from that kind of 'balance' design choice is luxuries - there should be no reason that some of them are not exactly identical in yields as their core function (different luxuries for the purposes of happiness) remains in tact.

 

[CrazyG]

Half the posters on VP have suggestions. Gazebo responds to them (explicitly or implicitly) and constantly offers betas as a result. But as he and others have requested, there's supposed to be a decent interval for experimentation by everyone... which you consistently ignore, because the mod keeps on not meeting whatever expectations you have in that moment.

"Unplayable" is a typical overstatement. Goddess of Festivals also works very well with Indonesia, and can be good enough with the right start. SoD is a good pantheon, but you can't afford to fail at founding if you choose it? Then don't fail... and if you do, all it means is that you got beat.

Now, on to "ugly." Wisdom is "perfect," so I guess you're saying Ancestor Worship is ugly because it "does pretty much the same." And God of the Sun works, but is ugly because it's "very controversial."

It sounds like you want what you want, and aren't going to stop complaining until you get it... which means you're never going to stop complaining.

I feel like the pantheons have become a lot less elegant. I would really like to see most pantheons have at most 3 yield types because this makes decisions more meaningful.

I'm really inclined to agree with Owlbeach here, overall the number of pantheons I really consider has gone down a lot with these changes

 

[Owlbebach]

It sounds like you want what you want, and aren't going to stop complaining until you get it... which means you're never going to stop complaining.

This is just not true. There were a lot of ideas, both implemented and not implemented (that were not coming from me) that i admitted to be a good idea. I can give a lot of examples.

Goddess of Festivals also works very well with Indonesia, and can be good enough with the right start.

This is not true either. Right now it does not work with Indonesia and it does not work with a good start. And i do not even need to try it to know because i played dozen of games with all previous versions of Festivals. Same with SoD.

And i specifically like how you edited your post (yes i saw!). You blamed me for throwing out poorly thought out suggestions and then reeling them back after some consideration (which i actually did only once, and i apologized), and then you do this with your own post. This is just funny.

 

[Gazebo]

I feel like the pantheons have become a lot less elegant. I would really like to see most pantheons have at most 3 yield types because this makes decisions more meaningful.

I'm really inclined to agree with Owlbeach here, overall the number of pantheons I really consider has gone down a lot with these changes

That's what happens when everyone complains about every pantheon not resulting in a religion on turn 100. Don't look at me, I thought Pantheons were fine.

G

 

[CrazyG]

That's what happens when everyone complains about every pantheon not resulting in a religion on turn 100. Don't look at me, I thought Pantheons were fine.

G

Then why did you change so many? Of the 24 existing pantheons, 17 were changed this patch. I only see suggestions from players to adjust like 5 or 6 (some of which didn't even change). We all agreed on a couple, why not adjust those then look? Especially since luxuries changed so much

God of All Creation was too good. The mountain one too (though it doesn't come up very often). Craftsmen and Sun-God were awkward. Festivals had a bug. I think we should go back to what we had, adjust these five (four that the community agrees for some kind of change, and one that has a bug), then take another look. If there is an AI performance issue a specific pantheon, lets discuss what options can address that while keeping things interesting for the player

 

[Dawnpromise]

I think a lot of people may just be suffering "You changed it now it sucks" syndrome. I think the new pantheons are interesting with more power and variety then befor. People should try playing with them before complaining, at least until they've played a few games with them to try them out.

It's a big shake up yes. But I don't think it's bad.

 

[Gazebo]

Then why did you change so many? Of the 24 existing pantheons, 17 were changed this patch. I only see suggestions from players to adjust like 5 or 6 (some of which didn't even change). We all agreed on a couple, why not adjust those then look? Especially since luxuries changed so much

God of All Creation was too good. The mountain one too (though it doesn't come up very often). Craftsmen and Sun-God were awkward. Festivals had a bug. I think we should go back to what we had, adjust these five (four that the community agrees for some kind of change, and one that has a bug), then take another look. If there is an AI performance issue a specific pantheon, lets discuss what options can address that while keeping things interesting for the player

Sigh. The changes made to the other pantheons affected AI decision-making. Running all pantheons through multiple permutations revealed that some of them would be picked and fail to found on a regular basis. The changes I made balanced this back out. People want a competitive AI, that means balancing the game around what they do best.

Only suggestions for 5 or 6? Really? Now you're just being (oddly, for you) nitpicky. People have complained about/asked for a balance look at the following 11 since the last rework:

• Craftsmen
• God of All
• Sun God
• Earth Mother
• Open Sky
• Goddess of Festivals
• Aurora
• Spirit of the Desert
• Commerce
• Nature
• Springtime

I changed 6 (based on AI performance and changes to above):

• Purity (because Oasis was moved to SoD, it needed a slight tweak)
• God-King (AI overperformance at all levels, it needed a fix)
• Expanse (AI overperformance at higher difficulties, especially Catherine and Huns, it needed a fix)
• Love (AI with a good capital start food-wise would take it and fail to found because they couldn't predict their next expansion well enough - now they can)
• Commerce (AI wasn't picking it - the adjustment brought it into the top 5 selector pool)
• Fertility (AI wasn't picking it, and when they did they never founded, and now they can)

I've always made it abundantly clear that AI performance is key for me. As I've noted already, AI performance pantheon-wise is better now than it has ever been. I'm personally seeing far fewer early game runaways as Pantheon discrepancy isn't causing an early game disparity as often.

Edit: I also feel that it is necessary to note that, of the 6 I changed independent of the discussion here and elsewhere, 3 of them were light touches. (Love, Commerce, Fertility), 1 because of another mechanic change (Purity), and 2 for AI overperformance (God-King and Expanse). Now, in all honesty, if these 6 changes truly are beyond the pale, I'm happy to discuss them, but they're all quite justified within the scope of my patch notes and my explanation here.

It's also worth noting that, from a design standpoint, having a wider but shallower variety of yields on a pantheon may 'genericize' them a little bit, but it also helps avoid situations where a yield spike can cause a map RNG imbalance. For example, +1 gold/food/faith on a wheat tile is more balanced than, say +3 faith on a wheat tile precisely because the scale of +3 faith spiking on 3-4 wheat near a city to 9-12 faith (pre religious founding) is more severe than +3-4g/f/fa in the same situation. Yes, it does take away some interesting strategies to do this, but it also means that map RNG hurts the game's religious imbalance a lot less (which has a major knock-on effect on everything, as the religious steroid is a major driver of AI divergence post turn-150 on standard). This may be common sense, but I feel it's worth highlighting as a rationale for some of the number changes here.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Sigh. The changes made to the other pantheons affected AI decision-making. Running all pantheons through multiple permutations revealed that some of them would be picked and fail to found on a regular basis. The changes I made balanced this back out. People want a competitive AI, that means balancing the game around what they do best.

Well you weren't making any sense. So you didn't think pantheons were fine, you found problems with AI functionality and made changes to address that. Which is fine. I appreciate you posting the reasoning for some of the changes. Can I ask a few questions though

Ancestor Worship is not in your list of player complaints or AI issues. It received a substantial buff and was already a very strong pantheon in my experience. Was this an AI under performer? On Deity I haven't seen the AI take this in months but its really strong, especially for high difficulty AI that have such fast early growth. I've started planning many games around this pantheon, just because I know it will be available. If the changes to pantheons will cause the AI to have more variety in choices, I'm all for it

Is Goddess of Wisdom performing well? It just seems really bad compared to some other options

Are we able to swap a yield for another yield, or will it heavily impact AI balance? For example, currently springtime provides 5 of the 6 basic yields, and in general the pantheons now provide far more types of yields than before. As a player I dislike this, does springtime have to provide specifically a production to the market? Or could something else be substituted. Before the list just looked so much cleaner, with fewer effects and fewer yield types per pantheon

 

[Gazebo]

Well you weren't making any sense. So you didn't think pantheons were fine, you found problems with AI functionality and made changes to address that. Which is fine. I appreciate you posting the reasoning for some of the changes. Can I ask a few questions though

Ancestor Worship is not in your list of player complaints or AI issues. It received a substantial buff and was already a very strong pantheon in my experience. Was this an AI under performer? On Deity I haven't seen the AI take this in months but its really strong, especially for high difficulty AI that have such fast early growth. I've started planning many games around this pantheon, just because I know it will be available. If the changes to pantheons will cause the AI to have more variety in choices, I'm all for it

Is Goddess of Wisdom performing well? It just seems really bad compared to some other options

Are we able to swap a yield for another yield, or will it heavily impact AI balance? For example, currently springtime provides 5 of the 6 basic yields, and in general the pantheons now provide far more types of yields than before. As a player I dislike this, does springtime have to provide specifically a production to the market? Or could something else be substituted. Before the list just looked so much cleaner, with fewer effects and fewer yield types per pantheon

Was typing in a hurry - I've actually seen a few discussions of Ancestor Worship here and there, and the specialist bump did push it into the top 5, so it's a hybrid. It also lost the flat science from the council, so - unless you go tradition - it will take a bit longer to get a specialist. So it is a bit of a trade-off.

Goddess of Wisdom is tricky- civs that usually take it have expanded quickly, and early expansion can really snowball. Harder to diagnose.

We can swap yields, yes, but ultimately I'm trying to avoid 'spike' yields of 2+ on anything as the AI has a hard time with predictive expansion, especially for terrain resources.

G

 

[tu_79]

When I'm looking at pantheons to increase my science output (I really need to research fast in this game), it seems to me that Ancestor Worship is the option for tradition tall, and Goddess of Wisdom the option for wide. Two science heavy pantheons, but for different play styles.

 

[Owlbebach]

Edit: I also feel that it is necessary to note that, of the 6 I changed independent of the discussion here and elsewhere, 3 of them were light touches. (Love, Commerce, Fertility), 1 because of another mechanic change (Purity), and 2 for AI overperformance (God-King and Expanse). Now, in all honesty, if these 6 changes truly are beyond the pale, I'm happy to discuss them, but they're all quite justified within the scope of my patch notes and my explanation here.

I'm sure this changes are more good than bad. God King and Love are unplayable, but they were unplayable before. Fertility, Purity, Nature, Aurora are all good. So is God of All. Not sure about Expanse, it kinda seems good but i'm afraid it will be OP for China and some other civs with strong early culture.
EDIT: Craftsmen requires testing. Problem is with other pantheons, they were tweaked, but not in a way, that solves the problem (from a human perspective)

Is Goddess of Wisdom performing well? It just seems really bad compared to some other options

You think Wisdom is bad? In my experience it is very good for certain civs, both foounding and non-founding (e.g. best choice for Maya). I used to plan lots of games around Ancestor when it was +2 culture, but i stopped doing that when it was chanhed to +1 culture, +1 science, to me its best side was that it was an easy way to fix early culture.