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[Tuning] Policies: Imperalism

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    About happiness from puppets, it would suffice with removing unhappiness from needings. Let them be unhappy for working on specialists, so happiness buildings have some sense.
     
  2. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I like the rework, but Civilising Mission's going to be OP. It's obvious, too much help in getting up infrastructure for almost nothing. Make the 50% bonus apply only to up to Medieval or maybe Renaissance buildings, if you're in Modern and it's affecting Industrial it'll be absolutely broken. It might still need reducing to 33% anyway. Besides that the only concern is Venice. So they'll be receiving 100% yields from puppets, no unhappiness and no Science/Culture cost increase for every city? Seems broken. How will they interact with Imperialism, the 50% will work, but the 25% for yields will affect them how? Not at all, or will they be at 125% yields with no cost increases and no unhappiness?
    Besides that all's fine though I think Exploitation seems a tad too strong, but it's not as obvious as Civilising Mission so it might be okay in practice.
     
  3. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Love the rework!
     
  4. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I like the idea, but it is easily exploitable by rushing the next era, making it particuliarly OP for Persia.
    What about +15% for each era between current era and the era of the building ? (if does not need new code)
     
    pineappledan likes this.
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    You'd still rush to next era to get the best from this.
     
  6. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah, but he does have a point that it could feel much more 'gamey' at 50% flat.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It's a very strong buff. So strong it almost rules out late game settling. I wonder if players wouldn't start goading other players/AI into settling things for them so they can conquer them and get the buff? I also think that Persia's outrageous benefit from the 'Police State' tenet is more than enough gamey-ness for one civ. The finisher reminds me of why Japan got overhauled; it's going to encourage bizarre systems exploitation rather than fun gameplay.

    The bonus should be made to ALL cities. It won't affect your core cities even if you do. It's also not like colonial powers didn't found new cities of their own when they were expanding (cape town, Singapore, Quebec, Kingston, etc.)

    I also really like Moi Magnus' idea. I imagine it wouldn't be as much additional work as we might think, since G built a similar mechanic for wonder production penalty calculations
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  8. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    This is a valid point. What if Imperialism could also get some bonuses for late-game settling? I feel that would’ve very on theme for the tree.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    There are plenty of late game settling buffs in order IIRC.
     
  10. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Maybe make the bonus +100% or even 200%, make it independent of puppetry/courthouses and simply make it work for 10 turns (scaling with gamespeed) in a newly acquired city after it's possible to start building? This way it doesn't matter if you settle or conquer, it'll be civilised.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Having it start at 25%, and scale up from era seems doable. BUT I think it only needs to apply to conquest cities. Otherwise Industry’s production bonuses are blown out.

    G
     
  12. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    Can't it have some sort of limit? This makes the stronger ones straight better than some cities. Hell, for Rome all conquered cities will be better than standard.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I dunno, I'm liking the production bonus to previous eras less and less:
    • it steps on industry's toes,
    • it could feel gamey,
    • it gives Persia a 2nd abusable policy for its UB.
    I think a bonus to archaeologists/historical sites/artifacts is sorely lacking. It fits great with the orientalism and culture angle people were suggesting. The other policy trees are soft on culture, so that could be a way imperialism differentiates itself.
    • Possible Archaeologist buffs:
      • ignore borders & rough terrain
      • 100%:c5production: cheaper
      • can purchase archaeologists
      • invisibility (like submarines)
      • +100% improvement speed
      • instant boost of :c5science: when creating an artifact, instant boost of :c5culture: when a historical site is built
    • Possible Historical Site buffs:
      • If built in minor civ territory, resting :c5influence:influence increased by 45
      • If built in major civ territory, major 1 time tourism boost vs that civ
      • +1:c5happy: happiness when historical site is worked
    • Possible Artifact buff:
      • Theming bonus in museums doubled
    An archeological boost would have to come earlier, maybe 1st tier

    I'm still not a fan of increasing aura radius on GGs and GAs. It's a pointless boost which makes the unit more passive
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Messing with archaeology to any substantial degree hurts the AI, as it would require a lot more AI programming. We're beyond that at this point in the project - the stuff I've done for Imperialism as-is is but a few lines here and there.

    G
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Current changelog:

    Code:
    Balance
            Puppets:
                No longer produce unhappiness or happiness
                Only produce 25% of each yield (except food/production, which are 75%).
                No longer produce GP points
                
            Units:
                Great Admiral: May use the Repair Fleet Ability twice before being expended. Loses half of its maximum health each time it uses this ability.
            
            Imperialism
                Opener: +1 Movement for Naval units, Embarked units, and Great Generals; +1 Sight for Naval and Land melee units. +10% Production towards Military Units, -10% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
                Scaler: +5% Production towards Military Units, -5% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
                Finisher: Air units gain the Peacekeepers Promotion (Each Air unit stationed in a city increases the City's Defense by 3, and reduces Unhappiness from needs by 3%.), and Naval units gain the Ironsides Promotion (Units become stronger as they take damage.). Great Admirals generate +2 Luxuries from Voyages of Discovery.
                Martial Law: Puppet City yield penalties reduced by 25%. Constabularies provide +1 Happiness, and garrisons no longer require Gold maintenance.
                Exploitation: Farms, Camps, and Plantations gain +1 Production and +2 Food. All Ocean, Coast, and Lake tiles gain +2 Science and +1 Production. Military Units can be upgraded in territory owned by Vassals and friendly City-States.
                Regimental System: Earn Great Generals and Great Admirals 33% more quickly. Great General and Great Admiral Combat Bonuses are increased by 10%, and their Auras by 1.
                Colonialism: +10% to Yield and Golden Age duration modifiers from Global Monopolies; +4 to Yields and Happiness from Global Monopolies. Barracks, Armories, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels provide +5 Science and +2 Culture.
                Civilizing Mission: Receive a large sum of Gold when you conquer a city. Puppeted cities, and cities with a Courthouse, gain +10% Production towards buildings, with an additional +10% per Era difference between your current Era and the building's Era.
     
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  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I have kind of a random idea-why not expand Civilizing Mission's bonus gold to both settling and conquering, and have each conquered city provide a free pioneer/colonist? That way, if you don't like the city you take, you can plant a new one right there and get two instances of bonus gold too.

    Btw, why does razing take so long? Is there any reason why the rate of razing is 1 turn per pop instead of 1 turn per 2 pop or something.

    I'm just going to quote myself on why I'm skeptical of the no puppet happiness/unhappiness idea.

     
  17. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I don't like how Civilizing Mission will make conquered cities way better than your base ones. With the production bonus they'll very quickly build enough to keep up with the majority of your cities and then inevitably eclipse them. It also makes Colonist/Pioneer/Conquistador settling even worse. Right now it can be pretty smart to raze bad stuff to build your own city in the same/similar spot, especially to get settling/conquest yields twice with some policies/beliefs. Colonists or whatnots might bring more buildings at first, but considering by the time you get CM ancient/classical era buildings get at least 50/40 production bonus, they'll be made in no time anyway and the permanent reward of bonus production is always going to be better. A temporary, very high bonus to both freshly settled and conquered ones would not imbalance it.
     
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  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    another reason a powerful but short bonus on civilizing mission is interesting because it further creates an interesting strategic choice.

    Puppets for imperialism are awesome. You can go puppets and let the super bonus build what may, or annex quickly and be able to use this super bonus to build exactly what you want as opposed to what the puppet chooses. But the clock is ticking so you want to choose quickly.

    Oh I did want to say that the GA healing change is very interesting, definitely want to see how that plays out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  19. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    1- I think you're overestimating the bonus compared to a freshly wrecked city. You're getting this in industrial era, it's not like there's that much game left to be relevant. Only the greatest of cities would be able to potentially surpass yours.
    2- It's also not like many, many, many warmongering civilizations in the past didn't take over cities that surpassed their capital after being rebuilt. Look at Istanbul.
     
  20. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I really like this, and would love to test it.
     

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