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[Tuning] Policies: Imperalism

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    RIP Venice.

    Also,
    needs a tooltip wording change. It sounds to me that Martial Law will let puppets produce 18.375% more yields or something instead of +25% directly.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    One other praise for this tree is I think it has a very nice progression of bonuses.

    If I wanted to do a dip in this tree, the opener and colonialism/martial law provides a nice economic bump. Regimental System is the most war focused, and left as a little bit optional by being on the right side of the tree. Its a strong pick for warring players, but for those not warring at the moment, it can be skipped. Exploitation has always been a star of the tree, and still remains so, giving you a nice benefit that everyone can enjoy.

    At Civilizing Mission, we move back into more war (or effect of war) focused bonuses. Some players may bail out of the tree at this point, but satisfied they got a solid mix of economic and military benefits. For those who have been warring or plan to war more, jump right into civilizing mission and then the finisher continues to provide nice benefits.

    I feel this tree has a nice balance of war and economic benefits that are different from the other 2 trees. Overall I agree with ElliotS, its a good looking tree at the moment.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just brainstorming one other idea. We flirted with the idea of hidden sites because G liked the idea of war players getting back in the culture game. Ultimately, the reason Artistry is so strong in that is because historic events are still the key to big tourism, and artistry gets access to a whole new branch of it (historical events when you finish a dig).

    Would a similar idea work for Imperalism's finisher? For example, you get a historic event whenever you take a city for the first time. Flavorwise, you could represent this as military parades or war statues. A culture focused on warring and getting huge is going to really celebrate the taking of new property...and so makes a huge deal of it which draws in tourism.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Tourism bonuses are distributed among middle age policies. I would not add another tourism related bonus in industrial.

    Do you think Imperialism has now some appeal for people not going Domination? I mean, Statecraft is important for those pursuing Diplomatic victory, but the bonuses are fine enough for any other victory type, as is Artistry with culture victory.

    A couple of questions.
    1. Can scientific victory be achieved without Rationalism?
    2. Is completing Imperialism useful for those not pursuing Domination?
     
  5. theMisterRud

    theMisterRud Chieftain

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    Although I don't think that the bonus is too relevant in terms of effect, I too don't like the idea that a city has a bonus tied to the fact that it has bee conquered by another civ.
    Maybe a higher bonus on the construction of defensive/military buildings ? Just throwing in out there
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    On emperor i can win science with industry...but I have to get in the face of rationalism focused civs or they will best me in science.

    With this imperialism tree I see the following potential niches:

    1) wide puppet master
    2) coastal focused civ. The key here will be whether the more powerful (and quicker) coastal bonuses outweigh the building buying power of industry in those satellite coastal or island cities.
    3) total war
    4) colonialism dip. You did into colonialism to get a strong monopoly bonus and some great science coupled with some nice military benefits..and then head to another tree.
    5) defensive CV play. Sometimes when you are going CV, the stars align and you are blitzing in tourism. At that point, the only way someone can realistically beat you is to wipe you off the map.

    There may be an interesting niche for a small civ using imperialism for its defensive benefits. Allowing it to hold on long enough to get the CV. This is another one where it’s a question if industry is still better. For small civs having quality of units is important, so the extra army strength and more supply through GGs and GAs could be very useful. On the other hand, industry is just raw awesome at building everything. It will be interesting to which policy comes out on top for this niche
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    @tu_79 and @hr_oskar perhaps we see things differently, but policies should confer tangible benefits that help you win; QoL isn’t what policies are there for. If a policy’s effect can be reproduced or compensated for with a little more micromanagement, then it’s not really conferring an advantage. If the QoL improvements for having 3aura generals is dramatic, then maybe that should just be a change to the base game? Otherwise, it’s good material for a modmod.

    I doubt anyone will raise a stink about this after testing. 3aura isn’t BAD, and it doesn’t change gameplay except to make your GG/GA just part of the scenery. It’s hard to complain about a feature designed to make you think LESS about it. Isn’t this precisely what you wanted to avoid though? Doesn’t making GGs/GAs pylons hurts a player’s ability to notice their impact?

    Some possible GA/GG abilities that could make minimal impact for AI, but be interesting nonetheless.
    GG radius confers 15% bonus vs fortification - no units have fortification bonus in game. Doesn’t negate fortify, but makes stagnant fronts less of an issue for imperialism players
    Workers within 3 tiles of a GG get +25% improvement speed - good generals think tactics; great generals think logistics. Give GGs a peacetime use with a very big radius so they don’t feel like babysitters, and the AI can benefit easier.
    GA radius confers 15% bonus vs land units and cities. Partially mitigate the penalty vs domain
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Honestly I consider GGs part of the scenery even before the change. And I don’t mind that, not everything has to be a strategy decision.

    Ultimately the aura change is really a non change for me. I can take it or leave it, I don’t really care. The increased aura strength is the main benefit
     
    ashendashin and ElliotS like this.
  9. RAuer2

    RAuer2 Chieftain

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    @pineappledan I understand what you are saying, though I disagree. Gazebo doesn't want to go the route of adding/modifying the nearby promotions. I suspect that is related to how the AI would understand the change (based on my unsuccessful suggestion to have great admirals grant a promotion to nearby naval units). If I am remembering right and AI understanding was the issue (or new code needed to implement that understanding), then I support not doing it.

    As for the GG changes, the new Imperialism tree will give the GG +1 movement, stronger aura, and the aura will shift from 2 hex radius (19 hexes) to 3 hex radius (37 hexes). That is awesome and will positively impact how I use those units. I wish I had waited a few more days to start my current game so I could include this update sooner and try it out.
     
  10. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Increasing the GG radius has a few benefits beyond QoL:
    • Defense. You can't micromanage your GG when it's the other side's turn.
    • Behind the lines forays. Your cavalry/tank units are more likely to benefit from the GG if they get behind the enemy lines.
    • Fewer GGs are necessary on each front. You can handle more fronts or plant more citadels.
     
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  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Not only this, but one thing is having meaningful decisions, and another very different one is having to micromanage a lot.

    There's no need for a mod mod, since only the most heavy warmongers are going to face such chore.
     
  12. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I actually really like this idea. Learning to build roads and cutting down pesky forests near my war front has pretty much helped me move up a whole difficulty level. More worker interactions sounds good to encourage in imperialism and in the whole game in general
     
  13. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    The main problem is that devs mostly give up the idea to teach the AI how to use workers for making tactical roads or similar things (far too complex), and buff to things the AI is particularly bad at will not be implemented in VP.
     
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