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[Tuning] Religion: Enhancer Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Clericalism. Happiness for following cities. Bonus for CS with same faith.

    Evangelism. Stronger missionaries. Gain science for spreading action.

    Pacifism. Cheaper inquisitors and missionaries. Happiness for peaceful foreign followers.

    Resilience. Prophets on steroids. When majority, weaker erosion.

    Ritual. Passively spread farther. Trade routes spread x2 to friendly CS.

    Sainthood. Science and Culture for foreign followers. Faith when spending People.

    Scripture. Stronger religious pressure. Spies do add pressure.

    Tithes. Gold for each new city following. Gold and faith for foreign followers.

    Zealotry. Faith purchase land units. Increase strategics.


    So.
    Helping to spread your religion: 5
    Aggressive spreading needed: 5
    Mostly passive: 3
    Benefit from # cities (including missionaries and added pressure for close settling):6
    Benefit from pop (cheaper prophets): 1 (unless you are India, as pop increases pressure)
    Encourages friendly playing: 5
    Encourages war: 2

    I'd say that there are little good options for tall players, that usually don't have tons of faith to begin with. Sainthood is ok, for the late game GP purchasing, specially with a heathen neighbour (it doesn't pay to enter in a religious contest). Zealotry could help a tall player to make a buffer of puppets. And maybe resilience, if number of Prophets is better for tall than for wide (not really sure), as it saves some faith points you can use for something else.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Tall are better with Sainthood, Pacifism, Evangelicalism and Tithes.

    Wide are better with Clericalism, Ritual, Scripture.

    Zealotry is really good for both. Resilience seems handmade for India and no one else.

    Part of my problem is that Ritual and Scripture are basically the same belief and very boring.

    Aside from that does anyone actually think Tithes is any good? We're disagreeing on Sainthood, but Tithes seems god-awful. I rarely used it at 6, and at 8 it's worthless. Making it count your own followers would make it useful again imo.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Evangelism requires missionaries. Tall does not produce too much faith nor missionaries, compared to wide. The extra missionaries you can produce by having more cities (and probably territory) overcomes the extra tech costs. Tithes easy part is converting your own cities. Wide has more own cities to convert. Even the harder one, converting neighbours, is easier by being wide. Unless you go and conquer the world... so you end up with many cities even with a tall start.

    Ritual and Scripture basically the same. At least their first part. Maybe there's a difference when having a large empire, Ritual can make use of your farthest cities (in the same landmass), while Scripture is better near the holy city, and more local. The second part makes them different, but not that much. Spies can do little against major civs, in order to convert, so they work best while attempting coups, so essentially both have something to convert states.
     
  4. void_genesis

    void_genesis Prince

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    Does resilience actually work? I chose it recently as India and saw my border city with 17 followers take a few hits from an AI great prophet and drop to 0-1 followers each time.
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I've seen it work once upon a time when I took an Indian city. That was a while ago though. I NEVER see it, so it's hard to tell.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Huh? Pacifism's happiness is extremely good for a wide empire, it lets you expand much more than you normally would. For tall its an ok belief just because of the missionary/inquisitor discount, but the happiness at best is just golden age points or some culture if you took aesthetics

    Evangelism is better for wide as well. Its all about faith output, which always favors wide. The extra faith of an additional city will be worth much more than the increased science cost

    I'm down for additional effects on the pressure related beliefs. I've never gotten a good grasp of how strong they are. Resilience is probably due for an update, given how great prophet costs have changed. My last game with India I took sainthood, I see the appeal of resilience but its a very all in strategy. I can tell you that trying to spam holy sites with Byzantium, using that Resilience, is an awful strategy
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Is it even possible to go wide AND peaceful? Also I don't much like the idea that my happiness could plummet to the negatives if someone declares on me. I'll take your word on it though.

    That's fair. I've been convinced on that one.

    The spreader beliefs seem like they're mostly there to allow the AI to annoy you ATM. You get less from spreading, but deny your opponents some of the benefits as well if it works right.

    I'd rather get yields outright and I expect most people would though, so it seems more like an AI annoyance than a good strategy.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You get happiness for followers with a foreign civ that you aren't at war with. So lets say you have 3 CS allies with your religion, for a total of 24 followers. That would be 4 happiness, a solid boost for a very modest amount of foreign followers.

    I'm not suggesting getting 50 happiness from followers in rival civs, and then expanding to 10 more cities because of it. But lets say you get 60 followers in 3 different civs. I'd plan to use about 10 of that extra happiness, because I believe I can reasonably stay at peace with at least one of them. It also means I can make different decisions, like neglecting gold production while at peace in favor of better tiles or specialists.

    Its really not that hard to stay at peace with non-aggressive civs if you play nice, especially with a shared religion bonus.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It's simpler. You convert one of the civs that could not found its religion and fight against the rest.

    To me, enhancers has been a mean for saving faith points. Zealotry excepted. Without enhancements all has to be done by missionaries. Oh, and an additional belief, that's were additional yields are.

    With no enhancer, your religion won't spread too much (and you'll miss diplomatic benefits) or it will be too costly (and you'll miss faith points for further purchases).

    Resilience seems designed for a civ with an early edge in religion, one that enhances faster than the rest, but no great faith generation. India? Tall Celts?
     
  11. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    How are the sainthood bonuses supposed to scale? Do the science/culture per 10 pop in foreign cities scale? Or does the faith per gp expended scale? Is it every era? Kind of hard to tell on the former, but neither seem to be scaling in my current game (9-7 build). Just looking for some clarity before I put in a bug report.
     

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