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Tuning Religion Founder Beliefs Round 2

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by CrazyG, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I thought I would create a new thread as many massive changes have taken place. Format stolen from the old thread.

    A - Great, no change
    C - Belief is a bit too weak, a bit too strong, or just not quite interesting enough. Needs some possible adjustment.
    F - Belief is too weak or too strong, and needs some love.

    Apostolic Tradition: (A+)

    (Building) +4 GA points/+4 Faith. +5 GA points from Holy Sites
    (General) When missionaries spread, gain 1 food and golden age point for every follower (no longer scaling with era)

    Its a ton of growth and basically infinite golden ages if you focus on spreading.

    Ceremonial Burial: (A)

    (Building) +5 Faith. +5 Faith from Holy Sites. Gain Faith when your own unit is killed.
    (General) Gain 5 Faith/5 Culture when expending a Great Person per city following your religion (Era Scale).

    Its a key component to Great Person spam. The culture has good long term and the immediate faith can help a fast enhance strategy. The faith on unit dieing is interesting but I've yet to see it do much.

    Council of Elders: (A)

    (Building) +4 Faith, +5 Food. +5 Science from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain 10 science and 10 production per # of cities following your religionwhen a city adopts your religion (Era Scale).

    What isn't clear from the wording is you cannot get credit for the same city twice. On demand production is a powerful tool, I think its strong.

    Hero Worship: (C)

    (Building) +5 Faith, +15% Military Production. +5 Production from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Faith and GA points when conquering a city (Era/City Population scale).

    Can anyone post how much you get? I know some people really like it, but I find it a little slow. Production on Holy sites is really good though.

    Edit- Thanks EliotS. 50 Faith and Golden Age Points for a 1 pop city. About 400 hundred for an 18 Pop, scaling with era

    Holy Law: (???)

    (Building) +4 Faith, +6 Gold. +5 Gold to Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Faith, Science, and Gold when purchasing a policy, scaling with era and number of cities.

    Divine Inheritance (used to be called Mandate of Heaven): (C)

    (Building) +2 Faith/Culture/Food/Science/Gold/Production. +5 Faith for Holy Sites.
    (General) +15% to all yields of Holy City during a Golden Age.

    I feel like even if you align all the synergies it needs its not that great. The last two times I planned to take it I couldn't because the great prophet appeared in the wrong city.

    Theocratic Rule: (N/E)

    (Building) +10 Faith. +5 culture for Holy Sites.
    (General) WLTK increases Faith/Culture/Gold by 15%.

    I haven't been able to pick it as the AI loves this belief. Anyone have thoughts on it since it lost its science? The science was the piece that appealed to me the most.

    Way of the Pilgrim: (A or C)

    (Building) +4 Faith/+2 Culture. +4 Art/Artifact Slots. +5 Tourism for Holy Sites.
    (General) 25 Tourism and Culture when you spread to foreign cities (Era Scale)

    I haven't used it yet but it seems pretty good. Its a solid source of tourism early on when tourism is hard to get. Trading faith for tourism and culture is pretty appealing to me.

    Way of Transcendence: (C, possibly too strong)

    (Building) +3 Faith/+5 culture. +5 Food from Holy Sites
    (General) +300 to all yields in Holy City when you enter a new era (Era Scale)

    The change isn't obvious, but it now provides food and production. The production is enough to instant build a wonder. I think its too strong, its really tough for the spreader beliefs to match this. For example Council of Elders will need to spread 10 cities every era to match only the production and science.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
    Owlbebach likes this.
  2. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    I dont realize that way of transcendence change from national yield to capital yield. I might pick this as second pick now, since theocratic is always 1st pick for AI.

    When it is national yield, it is already quite strong, but making it capital yield, it means extra food/growth,production/rush wonder, and border growth too. It sounds quite OP, but i need a bit testing.
     
  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Hero worship gives 50 faith and GA points from capturing a 1 size city in ancient/classical on standard speed, and a size 18 city in industrial is 1600 faith and GA points. (I think. Check my Denmark Deity win image gallery.)

    In short I don't have any idea how the scaling works, but looking at it like that it seems pretty weak considering how rarely you take over cities compared to other events and the yields offered.
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Hopefully someone who understands how to read the XML better than I can get the exact formula. Its the only founder whose values are not displayed in game.

    Sounds like its roughly 50 per every 2 citizens, scaling with era (this isn't right but it seems to be in the ballpark. That would be decent later on (1,600 is pretty good), but its definitely a lot less helpful than the others at first. Its a big effort to take cities and faith is weaker by that stage of the game.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's roughly the formula, yes. Again, though, conquest related abilities are usually lower because of the zero-sum nature of conquest.
     
  6. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah, but my point is that this doesn't make conquest any easier and you could use another founder belief and still conquer.

    Theocratic rule will likely get you more faith, in addition to culture and gold. Way of Transcendence can give you a free wonder. (instant great lighthouse is a lot more helpful for conquest than getting small amounts of faith and GA points early and a ton later when they are less valuable.)

    Council of Elders gives you better yields earlier (50-100 faith and GA points < 60+ science and production, which will happen on your own cities in addition to the ones you conquer. Apostolic Tradition seems better in the early game for GA points, and gives food too.

    I'm not going to claim that Hero Worship is an F, I think it's a C.

    My suggestion: Give it a free great general when you adopt it. It would give it an actual military benefit before reforming, which is the edge it needs I think.

    Another idea could be yields when great generals are born, but that feels a bit too powerful.

    Another belief I believe is a little: Holy Law (C)

    I find it weird that it wants you to get policies, but also doesn't want you to get policies. It seems at odds with itself. The yields are fine, but the other part isn't. I'd rather see it give +2 WC votes or +gold on trade routes.

    The yields are good though.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Or give hero worship some supply on its national wonder? Seems fitting with all the recent changes. I don't think its bad, I just really value instant a fast return on religious beliefs.
     
  8. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    I agree that a small amount of supply on Hero Worship building might be what the doctor ordered.

    Other:
    Apostolic Tradition is somewhat weak unless going for that really rare GA + religion combo that might snowball if stars align. Usually no, though. Also you need to love spamming missionaries like no tomorrow.
    Ceremonial Burial is good. One of my top picks, even if not going directly 'great people spam'.
    Council of Elders is stupid-strong if you can beeline religion before others (religious civ or getting lucky with ruins/pantheon). Say 'hello' to a couple of nearly-free early wonders. Heckuva map-dependant, but potentially insanely good.
    Hero Worship is really only worth it if you're planning of conquering from T1 onwards and keeping that snowball going all game (Aztec, Zulus, Celts, Denmark etc.)... but it is fairly good then. Particularly if you can combine faith, golden ages and conquest. Narrow but dang good when you go for that.
    Holy Law I tend to pick if I have nothing else that I can go for (usually if I am last to found, if then). It does have the slight problem that you want it when you know you're getting a lot of policies... which is when you don't really need a discount on wonder policy costs.
    Divine Inheritance. Oh hello, another GA-centric founder. Aztecs do love this one, that's for sure. Although the few Tradition-then-conquest civs can also probably get some leeway out of this.
    Theocratic Rule is good for one thing: if you plan on gobbling all the land (by war or just city spam). When going for the (modded) Economic victory condition (have a copy of each luxury and a butt-ton of income + bank), it's gloriously great.
    Way of the Pilgrim I don't really pick, but that's because I don't enjoy spamming Missionaries.
    Way of Transcendence seems to be always picked by AI, though the few times I've gotten it'¨s really, really good so can't really fault that.

    So I guess I really don't have much of a problem with most of them. I don't pick Apostolic Tradition or Way of the Pilgrim, but that's more because of playstyle choices than anything else. Founders seem to be in a good place, overall.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Hero worship has a hard time reforming already. I'd rather not add anything to the building.
     
  10. Dawnpromise

    Dawnpromise Prince

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    If it's hard to get built the why does it not need any buff? I think a minor supply buff or G. General points would be fitting additions.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Overall I completely agree, they are pretty balanced. I'll admit that I was going to start a please nerf Transcendence thread, but I figured this would be more constructive and positive, as often the "X is OP" threads can be toxic. I'll suggest trying it over Council of Elders if you get a really fast religion, its really good and you don't have to spread. Immediately spreading that follower belief to your competitors who had only a pantheon isn't ideal.

    The other things that stands out to me is Apostolic tradition, I don't see why its national wonder would be weaker than the others given the rest of it isn't anything special.
     
  12. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I feel Apostolic Tradition could use a GA% Increase to make up for the weak NW.

    Do you need the Mausoleum NW to get the Faith from lost units?
     
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That seems like a good idea. I've never picked Apostolic Tradition, but +25% or 50% GA length might make me consider it.

    Yeah. you need the NW. It sucks, but the belief is already an A so I wouldn't change it.
     
  14. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I too believe that Transcendence, which is my favourite founder belief, could do with a bit of nerf now that it includes food and production as well, perhaps lower the base by 30 or 50.
     
  15. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mean just removing the production from Transcendence would make it balanced IMO. Then again I thought it was good pre-buff, so I don't know why it needed a free GE and tons of food.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I have to bump the idea to nerf Transendence. Getting 300 to all yields that early is just absurd. It handily beats any other founder, its 1,800 yields scaling with era (not including GAP), all available instantly. Council of Elders would need to convert 30 cities in each era just to match raw yields which isn't really possible. Even then, Transcendence is better because the yields occur much earlier

    Using a strategy of Aztec-God of War->Way of Transcendence I was able to reach Renaissance while multiple Deity AI are still in classical, enhanced while 2 religions remained unfounded. If you take this belief in Ancient Era I don't see how you can lose.
     
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  17. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I thought it was balanced before the buff. I would remove the production to start, and maybe the food if it's still OP.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    With Cooperation the food gets pretty out of hand as well, but I wouldn't mind seeing everything drop to a smaller amount while keeping the food.

    I think the production really needs to go though. Build a wonder on era advance is ridiculous.
     
  19. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Apostolic Tradition: Meh. I'd take Council over it every time.

    Ceremonial Burial: Seems good for Tradition or certain civs that spam GPs for a different reason, like Rome/Japan. In the case of those two, well, Hero Worship seems to be obsoleting it.

    Council of Elders: Good.

    Hero Worship: Good. It's very bad in classical era as population is low and it doesn't scale up yet. Once it gets going nothing compares, though as a compensation it only provides the least important yields. Sure, it can get you tons of Great Prophets, but if you took it you're a conqueror, wide and because of that you'll barely feel the difference until you've made 4-5 Holy Sites near your capital, at which point the city is going to produce every regular building lightning fast. That's just how it is. It also has an awesome NW and Holy site. Not OP, not UP, it's a warmongering belief for a menace to the world.

    Holy Law: For Greece/Poland/Songhai/Denmark etc, good. Guys who get 50 trillion policies basically, and as you're one of those civs, policies aren't a problem so the reduction is slightly pointless. It does matter, but only for Alhambra because it has a really big policy cost compared to its place in tech from my experience. In my current Poland game when I've even managed to snag Oracle I do not feel bad about the pick, though the Holy Site and NW are going to be pretty bad. It could get a touch I guess, but I can see myself take it as one of those civs.

    Divine Inheritance - seems like a Venice/Tradition/OCC pick. Haven't picked it for a very long time but it was decent then.
    Also, if Prophet doesn't appear in the right city, move him to the one you want to found on. I always do it with my capital, never had someone steal the religion (at most I founded third instead of second, or fourth instead of third).

    Theocratic Rule: - seems to synergise with China though I've never taken them together, not something I had felt the impact of otherwise.

    Way of the Pilgrim - I never took it.

    Way of Transcendence - Insanely OP if you manage to get it before arriving in the classical era, not bad even if you don't. Outclasses everything, needs a nerf.
     
  20. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    I am currently trying for cultural victory shosone with way of pilgrim and church belief. Havent enhanced.
    Will try to see how it goes.

    Council of elder seems good on paper, but when I play india, i cant get anything out of it. Maybe india in itself is a problem in deity. Even with the most ideal start(perfume tile) + god of expanse, i managed to found 3rd on turn 70+, still my religion is going nowhere even with 2 religious building belief.
     

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