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Tuning Religion Founder Beliefs Round 2

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by CrazyG, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Same here (i tested it with glory of god, but it has the same mechanics. I was getting 1500 of everything for every great person). I am a bit concerned about the fact that new mechanics makes the game more unbalanced and luck-dependent.

    I mean that If you manage to found your religion while your neighbours do not have one - your religion can snowball out of control. On the other hand if you are unlucky to born on a continent with 3 neighbours and all 4 of you have religion - you are screwed, while some other lucky player dominates the rest of the world without any competition and gets incredible abount of whatever he gets.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Lots of things in civ can be chalked up to luck. But don't forget that Reformations are mutual, so all other civs get the benefits.

    G
     
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  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I think Hero Worship was hit the worst in the recent patch, and I'm not going to both taking it ever. The yield types suck AND it provides multiple times less than before. Like, taking a 10 pop city in renessance was 1500 faith and GAP. Now it's 400. Taking a 30 pop capital in modern was 6000 faith and GAP, now it's 1200.

    It was previously balanced because it gave insane amounts of near-worthless yields. Now it gives tiny amounts of near-worthless yields. I'd currently rate this founder as a 1/10. I can't even begin to describe how bad it is, even compared to the now-nerfed other founders.

    The founder beliefs with scaling removed had their power cut by between 50% and 75%. Were they really THAT OP?

    It's also basically a buff to Mandate of Heaven and Theocratic Rule to the tune of 2-3 times as good comparatively. I don't know if I disagree, but these numbers are crazy.

    Not sure exactly how I'd buff Hero Worship, but I think in the land of the nerfed it's wearing a dunce hat and re-lobotomizing itself with a rusty spoon.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Hero Worship still scales though. Check the description, I took it and it still scales, though it seems a bit worse.
     
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  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It is about 20% worse on yields, yep, however population scales a bit harder (x3, was x2), so it stays relevant longer. It is hard to find the sweet spot for conquest yields, but AI civs taking (and using) it seem to be doing better than before.

    G
     
  6. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    How about Way of Transcendence, Council, and Glory of God then? They seem to be a bit useles now...
     
  7. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I just did some basic math because I didn't pick up on the sarcasm and wanted to call WoT crap instinctively, but even if you 100% miss the classical proc and have 20 cities at medieval at 30 thereafter it averages out to ~10 of each yield per turn over the course of a 350 turn game. That doesn't seem terrible, especially considering that the method you get the yields is really good. (Easy to plan to instantly get a wonder.)

    It might be a little weak, but it's certainly not crap. I think it should grant a random Great Person when it procs.

    IDK about the others, or even this one really. It needs more playtesting.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Glory of God would be a good belief even without any yields for expending great people. Being able to faith purchase them all is strong by itself; you can still get plenty of great person yields from policies, wonders, other beliefs, and the great people themselves. And historic events
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That's why I compared it to DotA balancing. (which I'm a huge fan of) They don't nerf the OP part of a hero (unless it's stupidly OP) and instead nerf other aspects to make it overall balanced, but incredibly unique.

    The yields were never the OP part, but they were a great bonus on top of the ability to faith purchase everything. So nerfing them into the ground might make the yields basically extra text at this point, but the belief is still good for what it's good for.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The yields were definitely OP. You could get like 800 of everything for expending a great person that you only paid 1,100 faith for, and the ones naturally created

    Now with the same number of cities you would only get 80 of those yields in industrial era, which is still a pretty decent bonus. Its a long way from just being extra text.
     
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Not that bad? Are you serious? It is about as much as you will get from 7 monuments or 7 councils (if we talk about :c5culture: and :c5science:, but everything else is the same). It is awful compared to WLTKD founder or Apostolic Tradition. I think founders should be about equal strength

    EDIT: Or it is better to say that religions should be balanced around the strongest compinations - the strongest combinations of civ/religion should be about the same strenght
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If it builds Alhambra and Notre Dame for you, along with 10 of all other yields per turn, I'd say its pretty good. The WLTKD is better for a really big empire but not a tall empire, and you won't get screwed by desired luxury RNG
     
  13. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    My thoughts on the current state of Founder beliefs (version Feb. 7th):

    Theocratic rule: +10% to faith is not useful, since it's very rare for a city to have over 10 faith. I'd propose either buffing the other two to +15% or changing faith to 10+% to some other yield.

    Council of Elders: I think it's been overnerfed. If I understand correctly, if you convert the 41st city, you only get 240 production and 240 science? That seems very little.

    Way of Transcendence: I think it's too strong compared to other founders, now that it (again) scales with era. I'd either keep the scaling and reduce the base numbers, or lose the scaling (and perhaps slightly increase the base numbers).

    Apostolic tradition: Does it/could it work also when the number of followers increases because you use an inquisitor in your own city? I think it should, it's usually a major change of the number of followers.

    Divine inheritance: I think +10% is too weak, I'd rather see it bumped to +15% or +20%.
     
  14. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    I agree with those feelings but best to decide how strong a founder must be, and if any founder is at the right spot as it is now, and then balance other founders to be of approx same strength. Any candidate? :p
     
  15. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Good point, randomnub. I think that's tied to the question of how much of a difference we want between founding and non-founding civs, so we don't make the founders too strong.

    I must admit that at the moment, I don't have a strong opinion on how I'd rework the founders, beyond of what I've written in my post. So perhaps a nerf to WoT, a buff to TR (replace faith with something else), a buff to CoE (I'd change back to 6 per city and/or add faith or GAP, preferably faith), a buff to AT (by gaining that bonus while using an inquisitor, buffing to 35 food/GAP per follower changed), a buff to DI (preferably 20%). I don't have much experience with the other founders.
     
  16. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    CoE was changed from 10 to 6 yields per city, from 'OP' to 'useless', so we all know what the next magic number could be :D

    Good point on faith on TR, and I'd like for inquisitors/prophets to apply for AT as well. DI seems weak but I'd have to pick it and keep notes on how many yields I'm getting from it first, a thing I'm avoiding as plague atm, guts feelings and all that.
     
  17. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Yes, I mis-typed in my previous post, I meant to write to increase to 8, not to 6. There's only a limited amount of cities in a standard game and some cities are inherently hard to convert (holy cities, cities of civs that are founders,...). I understand that might cause issues on larger maps, but that's why there could be a cap on how much science/production you can gain from a city, and that cap could be different for different sizes (lower cap for larger maps, since there are more cities there).
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's a good question - my opinion is that founding a religion should be enough to put you a few techs or policies ahead, and/or grab you a handful of extra great people. More than that and it becomes a balance issue.

    G
     
  19. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    My view on balancing founders for huge maps: it should deserve the same time we put into discussing and balancing navy for Great Plains and desert folklore for Boreal.
     
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  20. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Gazebo, does that intended scope of benefits include just the "Founder" part or the "Enhancer" part as well?

    In any case, WoT falls way beyond that scope, I think it'd be better to remove scaling and instead increase it to 45 per type of yield per city.
     

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