[Tuning] Religion: Pantheons

[Stalker0]

I had thought I had done this one, but guess not. So lets take a look at Pantheons.

My usual guide:

A - Religion is good as is.
C - Religion is a little too weak or too strong, or just not interesting enough.
F - Religion is too weak or too strong, and needs some love.

Ancestor Worship: +1 Faith/3 citizens. +2 culture from councils.

(A). This one is fine as is. Scale decently well, can give some good culture early.


Earth Mother: +1 Faith/Gold from Mines on Improved Resources. +2 Production from Monuments.

(C). I think this one is close. The prod bonus is nice and comes easier than some other pantheons. However, it gets no starting faith. I don't mind that, but this isn't enough payout to be worth it.

God of All Creation: +2 Faith in Capital. +1 culture and happiness for Pantheon Founded (caps at 8).

(A). Still the best default belief to me. Some are stronger in some scenarios, but this one is never bad, and tends to get its bonuses quickly which makes it great. The difference is now some of the other pantheons scale better late game making them more competitive.

That said, I wonder if its worth dropping to +1 Faith and making it a more Faith-Lite Pantheon...its culture bonus is really good and comes very quickly in the game.

God of Commerce: +1 Faith per 30 GPT. +3 Faith/+2 Gold in Cities with a City Connection.

(N/A). Never taken this one myself. I actually think Goddess of Wisdom trumps this one (I can't remember is the GPT is before or after expenses...that makes a big difference). The issue here is that while the faith from connections is good, connections tend to come pretty late, and your going without any faith for a while. On the other hand, this actually encourages you to get those connections earlier.

God of Craftsmen: +1 production/+1 gold from Quarries/Stone Works. +3 Faith in Cities with a specialist.

(C). I want to like this one. For a Tradition player its got the early faith you want. I like more hammers especially...but there are just better choices out there. I sometimes feel that this and earth mother should be combined (+3 faith from cities with a specialist, +2 prod from monuments).

God of the Expanse: +25% faster border growth. Gain 20 Faith when a city expands its border (Era Scale).

(C). Ultimately the question is, with a border expand strategy (which is why you would take this)...does the late game faith pan out? In theory this might be a great mid to late game faith generator compared to some others.

Now that polices have been changed where some border expansion policy strategies might be worth playing around with (A Tradition 2/Honor 2/Piety 3 kind of thing), this might be an A in niche scenarios.

God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture for every 2 Plains or Grassland tiles (without hills or features) worked by a city. +1 faith and gold from pastures.

(F). So the key here is that after clarification, this bonus does not apply to a bonus resource on a grass or plains tile. So early game you are unlikely to use it. Even later game, it takes 16 tiles to get the same culture bonus as God of all Creation...and we don't get happiness. The pastures bonus is decent because pastures are very common, but its too late for this to pay off.

God of the Sea: +1 Faith/+1 Production from Fishing Boats and Atolls. +3 food in coastal cities.

(A). This is one of my favorites, and is good example of what a faith-lite pantheon should look like. Early game, you are going to have to work to get your religion going with this pantheon, but it gives you a solid growth bonus is return, and helps make coastal or island cities much more production with the extra hammers.

God of the Stars and Sky: +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 production from Tundra Tiles with Improved Resources.

(N/A). Some people think its great, others think its most OP thing in this list. I can't remember that last time I got a tundra start and could really try this out, it certainly looks amazing for that type of start.

God of the Sun: +2 Food, +1 gold from Granaries. +1 Faith and +2 culture from Farms on Wheat.

(A). Another good Faith-Lite pantheon. You get a solid food bonus to a very common building, but really its the culture that makes this thing worth it. If you get wheat early on, its always on the list.

God of War: +50% increase in ranged combat strength. Gain faith if you win a battle.

(N/A) Never taken this one. Now one question is with power warring, does the bonus here beat the faith of God of the Expanse? If not, than its the city ranged strength vs faster border growth. +50% ranged strength is no joke, but its not the bonus I usually want. This might have good synergy with Aztecs or Celts perhaps.

God-King: +1 culture, faith, gold, and science for every 8 followers of your pantheon in owned cities.

(A). Now one clarification I want to check here. It says only from owned cities, I actually thought this one was all cities?

Going from what it actually says. This is a faith-lite pantheon, so it needs to have a strong scaling to make it worth it. Ultimately there are pantheons that provide more faith and culture, and pantheons that provide better gold and science...but this one does it all.

I certainly don't think this one is OP anymore, and it takes a very wide playstyle to make it worth it, but it has its niche.

Goddess of Beauty: +2 faith and +1 culture from World Wonders. +15% production for Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

(C). I am basing this pantheon on the assumption that you get it with Stonehenge. Even with that, its just ok. At this point in the game, culture often drives the speed of wonder building more than hammers. Therefore culture driven pantheons actually have as much if not more advantage in getting those wonders.

The one sneaky benefit of this pantheon is it get converted into tourism late game, which is a nice little side benefit, and what keeps it a C for me.

Goddess of Fertility: +1 food and +1 faith from shrines/wells. +15% growth rate.

(C). Basically you are picking this to commit to a strong growth strategy...but in an area without rivers, which can make that tricky. Its also not the strongest faith generator. I think there are better ones to do the job, I also agree with others that it should add to watermills too. Its already a narrow niche, it doesn't need to be that narrow.

Goddess of Festivals. +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 gold for each unique luxury you control.

(A). The faith tone down I think brought it down from OP status. It is still a great pantheon, still one of the best to me, but its no longer completely automatic.

Goddess of Love: +10 faith and +10 GAP for each citizen born (Era Scale).

(F). Ultimately I think there are many pantheons that do this better. God of all Creation will give more GAP overall with the happiness, lots of pantheons give more faith overall. (I think god of the expanse gives better burst faith).

This one just doesn't have anything solid going for it.

Goddess of Nature: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +3 Faith and +2 culture for Natural Wonders.

(F). I know others like this one, I just do not see the appeal. Ancestor Worship can bag me more culture and faith overall than this one, even with heavy mountain areas. Natural Wonders I just don't find commonly enough to settle to be worth it....maybe its the maps I play?

I guess if you have the unique spot where you start out surrounded by mountains AND natural wonders in close reach than this becomes worth it....maybe. I just feel like there are other pantheons that give as much of a burst, and scale better long term than this one.

Goddess of Protection: +10 hp healed in friendly territory. +1 culture and +1 faith to palace, walls, and barracks.

(N/A). I've been meaning to try this one. Ancestor Worship ultimately is stronger in culture and faith....but double healing is no joke for warring. I don't know, I wonder if this would be better to just take out and lump in with the defender of the faith reformation belief...which also needs some love.

Goddess of Purity: +1 food and faith on Lakes, Oasis, and Marshes. +1 happiness on rivers.

(C). There is a niche for this one, and that is for a strong capital play on a big lake with a river Ultimately I think a god of the sea or god of the sun will not you more food overall, but the faith can be nice and immediate (not requiring any work). The happiness is okay, hard to put all of your cities on rivers to get the same benefit as a God of All Creation. To me the marsh and oasis benefit is minimal, its really the lakes that could make this work.

I think overall there are better ones, but if I ever get that magical lake start I'll see how strong it really is.

Goddess of Renewal:+1 faith and +1 culture for every 2 jungle or 2 forest tiles worked by the city. +1 science and +1 faith from Herbalists.

(C). I think this is missing just one thing. Give it a +1 faith out of the box, and its good to go. Ultimately this is a niche one, but the niche is solid. I think it can be a decent one, it just needs a little starting faith to get it moving.

Goddess of Springtime: +1 Faith and +1 culture from Plantations. +2 gold from Markets.

(F). Plantations come later than many other improvements and take a while to build, so this one is a very faith-lite pantheon, and the payoff isn't worth the benefit. There are other pantheons that give more gold, more culture, and more faith (Goddess of Festivals for one).

It looks so tempting for those plantation heavy cities...but its not worth the payout.

Goddess of the Hunt: +1 Faith, +1 Food, and +1 culture from Camps.

(A). Perfect. Camps come decently early, and there are many starts that have a lot of camps in the area. This gives a nice suite of benefits, nicely balanced, one of my favorites.

Goddess of Wisdom: +1 faith for every 15 science per turn. +1 science and +2 faith in every city.

(A, maybe C for OP). I've been trying this one out lately, and man is it good. It actually gives quite a bit of early faith, getting your second city (which you will likely do early) already gives you +4 faith with this guy, and then once you hit your first 15 science that's +5 faith....that's a great platform to build a religion. In fact, I don't think any other pantheon can really match its early game Faith with the possible exception of God of Commerce if you push those early connections or are Carthage.

The science is a good bonus this early in the game, though tapers off later. However, the Faith scaling for this belief is also quite good, not hard to get +50-+60 faith out of this later in the game. Only ancestor worship or goddess of the expanse with crazy border growth is likely going to net you those kind of numbers.

 

[tompliss]

/!\ Long post incoming

Earth Mother: +1 Faith/Gold from Mines on Improved Resources. +2 Production from Monuments.

(C). I think this one is close. The prod bonus is nice and comes easier than some other pantheons. However, it gets no starting faith. I don't mind that, but this isn't enough payout to be worth it.

I think a little bonus culture (either on mines or monuments) could be nice for this one. Or going the other way, and giving a little prod bonus on the mines to enhance its focus.

God of All Creation: +2 Faith in Capital. +1 culture and happiness for Pantheon Founded (caps at 8).

(A). Still the best default belief to me. Some are stronger in some scenarios, but this one is never bad, and tends to get its bonuses quickly which makes it great. The difference is now some of the other pantheons scale better late game making them more competitive.

That said, I wonder if its worth dropping to +1 Faith and making it a more Faith-Lite Pantheon...its culture bonus is really good and comes very quickly in the game.

I feel like it's still pretty good. the +2 Faith sounds good to me : you will need shrines/Stonehenge to get a religion. And reducing it to +1 or even +0 wouldn't change that much but would make me feel like it's a malus just to have a malus. I'd love to see it getting a reduced yield (1 per 2 pantheons).

God of Craftsmen: +1 production/+1 gold from Quarries/Stone Works. +3 Faith in Cities with a specialist.

(C). I want to like this one. For a Tradition player its got the early faith you want. I like more hammers especially...but there are just better choices out there. I sometimes feel that this and earth mother should be combined (+3 faith from cities with a specialist, +2 prod from monuments).

I feel like this one should get some more bonus from Stone Works, because of the unreliability of the building.

God of the Expanse: +25% faster border growth. Gain 20 Faith when a city expands its border (Era Scale).

(C). Ultimately the question is, with a border expand strategy (which is why you would take this)...does the late game faith pan out? In theory this might be a great mid to late game faith generator compared to some others.

Now that polices have been changed where some border expansion policy strategies might be worth playing around with (A Tradition 2/Honor 2/Piety 3 kind of thing), this might be an A in niche scenarios.

Played around with this one and I love it. It goes with weird policies combo, but it feels nice like it is.

God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture for every 2 Plains or Grassland tiles (without hills or features) worked by a city. +1 faith and gold from pastures.

Waiting to test the new version.

God of War: +50% increase in ranged combat strength. Gain faith if you win a battle.

(N/A) Never taken this one. Now one question is with power warring, does the bonus here beat the faith of God of the Expanse? If not, than its the city ranged strength vs faster border growth. +50% ranged strength is no joke, but its not the bonus I usually want. This might have good synergy with Aztecs or Celts perhaps.

I think a bonus to city Strength directly (that would help defend the city and combat crime) could help a bit more to send the troops conquering, a feel more present. The one time I played with it, the faith felt around a normal amount.

God-King: +1 culture, faith, gold, and science for every 8 followers of your pantheon in owned cities.

(A). Now one clarification I want to check here. It says only from owned cities, I actually thought this one was all cities?

Going from what it actually says. This is a faith-lite pantheon, so it needs to have a strong scaling to make it worth it. Ultimately there are pantheons that provide more faith and culture, and pantheons that provide better gold and science...but this one does it all.

I certainly don't think this one is OP anymore, and it takes a very wide playstyle to make it worth it, but it has its niche.

I like this one. I like its all-around role, its "invest for the end game" thing. It doesn't feel OP, and it feels useful. <3

Goddess of Beauty: +2 faith and +1 culture from World Wonders. +15% production for Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

(C). I am basing this pantheon on the assumption that you get it with Stonehenge. Even with that, its just ok. At this point in the game, culture often drives the speed of wonder building more than hammers. Therefore culture driven pantheons actually have as much if not more advantage in getting those wonders.

The one sneaky benefit of this pantheon is it get converted into tourism late game, which is a nice little side benefit, and what keeps it a C for me.

I'm not sure why it was reduced to +2 faith instead of +3. It felt good as it was, though it's one of those pantheons which is really better at Prince-King than at Immortal-Deity. If the "Standard" difficulty is King, it should be more balanced for this, now, though I don't think anybody should pick it in immortal/deity... :/

Goddess of Fertility: +1 food and +1 faith from shrines/wells. +15% growth rate.

(C). Basically you are picking this to commit to a strong growth strategy...but in an area without rivers, which can make that tricky. Its also not the strongest faith generator. I think there are better ones to do the job, I also agree with others that it should add to watermills too. Its already a narrow niche, it doesn't need to be that narrow.

I like this one. I don't mind that the bonus doesn't apply to watermills, because they're already better than wells. But maybe the bonus to wells should be higher.

Goddess of Nature: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +3 Faith and +2 culture for Natural Wonders.

(F). I know others like this one, I just do not see the appeal. Ancestor Worship can bag me more culture and faith overall than this one, even with heavy mountain areas. Natural Wonders I just don't find commonly enough to settle to be worth it....maybe its the maps I play?

I guess if you have the unique spot where you start out surrounded by mountains AND natural wonders in close reach than this becomes worth it....maybe. I just feel like there are other pantheons that give as much of a burst, and scale better long term than this one.

I don't like this one, because it is OP for Incas, and really niche for the others.

Goddess of Purity: +1 food and faith on Lakes, Oasis, and Marshes. +1 happiness on rivers.

(C). There is a niche for this one, and that is for a strong capital play on a big lake with a river Ultimately I think a god of the sea or god of the sun will not you more food overall, but the faith can be nice and immediate (not requiring any work). The happiness is okay, hard to put all of your cities on rivers to get the same benefit as a God of All Creation. To me the marsh and oasis benefit is minimal, its really the lakes that could make this work.

I think overall there are better ones, but if I ever get that magical lake start I'll see how strong it really is.

I feel like there is something missing in this one : its tiles are rarely together (except for those one-in-a-thousand 7+ tiles lakes). Maybe give its bonuses on watermills, to make it more Classical than (all bonuses on pick) Ancient ?

Goddess of Renewal:+1 faith and +1 culture for every 2 jungle or 2 forest tiles worked by the city. +1 science and +1 faith from Herbalists.

(C). I think this is missing just one thing. Give it a +1 faith out of the box, and its good to go. Ultimately this is a niche one, but the niche is solid. I think it can be a decent one, it just needs a little starting faith to get it moving.

I just used it in my Brazil game, and it felt good : the culture was good without being too much, the Faith let me get the first religion in Emperor without building many shrines, so around a good place.

Goddess of Springtime: +1 Faith and +1 culture from Plantations. +2 gold from Markets.

(F). Plantations come later than many other improvements and take a while to build, so this one is a very faith-lite pantheon, and the payoff isn't worth the benefit. There are other pantheons that give more gold, more culture, and more faith (Goddess of Festivals for one).

It looks so tempting for those plantation heavy cities...but its not worth the payout.

I feel like this one is lacking. Playing it with Indonesia (so with a bonus Plantation in every city) still doesn't feel great, because many plantations need many techs and don't have that great yields. It may need bonus food on plantations, because luxury plantations don't feel great that way.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Ancestor Worship: +1 Faith/3 citizens. +2 culture from councils.

A - good one. Enough culture and great faith.

Earth Mother: - F

It's just not appealing. No Culture, little faith/gold overall... I never pick it. I'd give it a base +1 Culture +1Faith/Science to Forge.

God of All Creation: A - overrated but good.

God of Commerce A - great one. Actually makes city connections worthwhile for non-Authority non-Progress players.

God of Craftsmen - C+. Decent faith, quarry/stone works cities really benefit.

God of the Expanse: - I never take it. Feels very, very weak at the first glance to me, but I will try it my next Mongolia game.

God of the Open Sky: C - a bit on the weak side, but then my last game I was working a staggering amount of Farms (got Cathedrals +1P+1G and Imperialism +1F+1P as Poland) - if I had it then, I would be getting lots of Culture from it.

God of the Sea: C- - it's not very bad but not good either. +3Food is decent but not as good as cultural bonuses of some pantheons, boats come pretty late and if you rush fishing, you are delaying Military Theory/Writing/etc, hurting yourself in the process.

God of the Stars and Sky: F- (brutally overpowered) to A+ (still overpowered but not so badly) - terrifyingly overpowered if the map script gives you more than average of Tundra. Nothing comes close considering you can - and will - get 5F 10C 10P in your capital very early (most resources on Tundra are Trapping-unlocked, plantations I nearly never see, mines/quarries are less common - so it's easy to get to the bonus)

On a Communitas Tundra start it often gives several super gods of creation with different yields

God of the Sun: A- - better than most early, but once it falls off, it turns very suboptimal. It's good anyway.

God of War - never took this one neither, I don't like unreliability that also forces me to do something or get no benefit (while doing that thing will often be inferior to what I would be getting had I just taken a pantheon that gives the buildings yields). I don't believe it would scale well unless the yield from killing in insane.

God-King - it's actually 1 of each for 6, check Pantheon.sql - Gazebo once said in the pantheon thread that he changed it to 1 for 6 after people complained after nerfing it to 1 for 8. He probably forgot to change the description.

I suppose I will give it an A-/C+? Stonehenge is easy to get and if you expand a lot and get lots of Shrines, you will likely found even with this one. It's initially pathetically weak, but with 1 of the yields for 6, it scales very well.

Unless it's secretly intended to be 1 for 8, in which case its scaling will also be terrible while crippling your religion early, in which case it's an F because it's just going to be bad - by the time it'll take over as being superior to other pantheons, it'll be so late in the game those yields will not even matter

Goddess of Beauty F - scales badly, unreliable.

Goddess of Fertility F - if it at least gave the bonus to Water Mills to it'd be bearable, but as it stands it's pretty bad. Even with +1Fa+1Fo to WM I doubt I'd ever take it

Goddess of Festivals F - it's just bad. Nonexistent scaling. Bad for civs both expansive and non-expansive.

Goddess of Love: +10 faith and +10 GAP for each citizen born (Era Scale).

F - maybe it's not as bad as it feels, but it does feel bad.

Goddess of Nature: C (too strong) to C (weak) - pretty overpowered with the right map, but on most maps mountains are not common and it'll be just weak.

Goddess of Protection A - healing is great for March units once you take a city, it gives decent Culture and Faith - what's not to like really.

Goddess of Purity C - unless you get a very lake-heavy start (and I mean very), it's not good. Even if you do get it, it's not going to make you go WOW

Goddess of Renewal: C+ - not bad, on some starts it's awesome.

Goddess of Springtime F to C - it's weak. Two different bonuses are stuck on two different techs. I suppose it's a strong A for Indonesia, but otherwise it's too unreliable, too slow and too late.

Goddess of the Hunt: C - most of the camps are in the Tundra. If they're in the Tundra, this one has nothing on Starts and Sky

Goddess of Wisdom: A - very strong but not overpowered. Helps you with early Science, grants you lotsa Faith, but overall it's not as good as Ancient Worship. +2 Culture >>> +1 Science, and you'll be getting way more of Faith from this one very soon.






God of Desert (forgot name but you forgot to include it) - +2 Faith +2 Gold +2 Food for upgraded Desert tile with resource

F to C. It's bad. Its yields are way inferior to those given by Tundra pantheon (+2 Culture is better than +1 Faith +2 Gold, +2 Food is worse than +2 Production), it doesn't give yields for Oases, Deserts are way smaller than Tundras on most maps and map generators, Deserts usually also hold less resources and have a higher variety - you will need to research many techs to get all from this one, because there will be a plantation, pasture, mine and quarry needed to make true use of it. It will not be that bad until you expand, at which point you will see that pretty much any other pantheon would've given you more benefit

 

[Funak]

Ancestor Worship: +1 Faith/3 citizens. +2 culture from councils.

(A). This one is fine as is. Scale decently well, can give some good culture early.

Tried it, it's fine. Faith is slightly weaker than average early on, but the scaling and the culture boost makes up for it.

Earth Mother: +1 Faith/Gold from Mines on Improved Resources. +2 Production from Monuments.

(C). I think this one is close. The prod bonus is nice and comes easier than some other pantheons. However, it gets no starting faith. I don't mind that, but this isn't enough payout to be worth it.

Lower end for me.

God of All Creation: +2 Faith in Capital. +1 culture and happiness for Pantheon Founded (caps at 8).

(A). Still the best default belief to me. Some are stronger in some scenarios, but this one is never bad, and tends to get its bonuses quickly which makes it great. The difference is now some of the other pantheons scale better late game making them more competitive.

That said, I wonder if its worth dropping to +1 Faith and making it a more Faith-Lite Pantheon...its culture bonus is really good and comes very quickly in the game.

I disagree with this, if you can't guarantee the stonehenge, and from what I've seen in Dawnbringers games, you can't anymore, this Pantheon is definitely going to lead to you not getting a religion. That being said, if you don't care about founding a religion this is a really solid pantheon.

God of Commerce: +1 Faith per 30 GPT. +3 Faith/+2 Gold in Cities with a City Connection.

(N/A). Never taken this one myself. I actually think Goddess of Wisdom trumps this one (I can't remember is the GPT is before or after expenses...that makes a big difference). The issue here is that while the faith from connections is good, connections tend to come pretty late, and your going without any faith for a while. On the other hand, this actually encourages you to get those connections earlier.

Apparently it's gross gold per turn, not net. That being said wisdom definitely outscales it, but the initial boost from city-connections on this one makes it a really strong choice for founding.

God of Craftsmen: +1 production/+1 gold from Quarries/Stone Works. +3 Faith in Cities with a specialist.

(C). I want to like this one. For a Tradition player its got the early faith you want. I like more hammers especially...but there are just better choices out there. I sometimes feel that this and earth mother should be combined (+3 faith from cities with a specialist, +2 prod from monuments).

Never really seen a good reason to pick this over Commerce. Getting markets up in your satellites is harder than building a road to them.

God of the Expanse: +25% faster border growth. Gain 20 Faith when a city expands its border (Era Scale).

(C). Ultimately the question is, with a border expand strategy (which is why you would take this)...does the late game faith pan out? In theory this might be a great mid to late game faith generator compared to some others.

Now that polices have been changed where some border expansion policy strategies might be worth playing around with (A Tradition 2/Honor 2/Piety 3 kind of thing), this might be an A in niche scenarios.

Done this with a full tradition build multiple times, it works really fine. Also done it as Authority Ethiopia, where it performed even better.

It does promote settling more cities than tradition should feel comfortable with and it does promote settling them early on (if you want that founding) which kinda breaks the golden rule of tradition, which is do not expand much before getting splendor because your policy-speed is going to tank.

God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture for every 2 Plains or Grassland tiles (without hills or features) worked by a city. +1 faith and gold from pastures.

(F). So the key here is that after clarification, this bonus does not apply to a bonus resource on a grass or plains tile. So early game you are unlikely to use it. Even later game, it takes 16 tiles to get the same culture bonus as God of all Creation...and we don't get happiness. The pastures bonus is decent because pastures are very common, but its too late for this to pay off.

This was fixed the same day you brought the issue up, which was ages ago

This is a fairly solid choice for a steppe-like start, especially if you're not going tradition (as tradition tend to work less tiles as the game goes on)

God of the Sea: +1 Faith/+1 Production from Fishing Boats and Atolls. +3 food in coastal cities.

(A). This is one of my favorites, and is good example of what a faith-lite pantheon should look like. Early game, you are going to have to work to get your religion going with this pantheon, but it gives you a solid growth bonus is return, and helps make coastal or island cities much more production with the extra hammers.

Honestly think this one is about as weak as Earthmother, the fishing-tech is expensive and so are fishingboats. You also tend to need to purchase the tiles to work them as natural expansion doesn't like coastal tiles.

It is probably a lot better if you get atolls, but for some reason I've never spawned close to one, ever.

God of the Stars and Sky: +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 production from Tundra Tiles with Improved Resources.

(N/A). Some people think its great, others think its most OP thing in this list. I can't remember that last time I got a tundra start and could really try this out, it certainly looks amazing for that type of start.

Tried it out once again after the nerf, was completely underwhelmed.

God of the Sun: +2 Food, +1 gold from Granaries. +1 Faith and +2 culture from Farms on Wheat.

(A). Another good Faith-Lite pantheon. You get a solid food bonus to a very common building, but really its the culture that makes this thing worth it. If you get wheat early on, its always on the list.

I very rarely get wheat-starts, but when I do this is always a solid choice.

God of War: +50% increase in ranged combat strength. Gain faith if you win a battle.

(N/A) Never taken this one. Now one question is with power warring, does the bonus here beat the faith of God of the Expanse? If not, than its the city ranged strength vs faster border growth. +50% ranged strength is no joke, but its not the bonus I usually want. This might have good synergy with Aztecs or Celts perhaps.

It does give a lot of faith, but you have to keep warring to keep it going.

And you should know that you can't pick it as celts

God-King: +1 culture, faith, gold, and science for every 8 followers of your pantheon in owned cities.

(A). Now one clarification I want to check here. It says only from owned cities, I actually thought this one was all cities?

Going from what it actually says. This is a faith-lite pantheon, so it needs to have a strong scaling to make it worth it. Ultimately there are pantheons that provide more faith and culture, and pantheons that provide better gold and science...but this one does it all.

I certainly don't think this one is OP anymore, and it takes a very wide playstyle to make it worth it, but it has its niche.

Haven't tried it since the nerf but it doesn't look very appealing.

Goddess of Beauty: +2 faith and +1 culture from World Wonders. +15% production for Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

(C). I am basing this pantheon on the assumption that you get it with Stonehenge. Even with that, its just ok. At this point in the game, culture often drives the speed of wonder building more than hammers. Therefore culture driven pantheons actually have as much if not more advantage in getting those wonders.

The one sneaky benefit of this pantheon is it get converted into tourism late game, which is a nice little side benefit, and what keeps it a C for me.

Haven't picked this one in a year, it's just too insignificant. How many wonders do you need to build in the ancient/classical eras to make this worth it? 6? 7? I usually get between 1 and 3 if I'm lucky and I'm kinda stacking the deck in my favor by playing smaller maps with fewer civs.

Goddess of Fertility: +1 food and +1 faith from shrines/wells. +15% growth rate.

(C). Basically you are picking this to commit to a strong growth strategy...but in an area without rivers, which can make that tricky. Its also not the strongest faith generator. I think there are better ones to do the job, I also agree with others that it should add to watermills too. Its already a narrow niche, it doesn't need to be that narrow.

Wells aren't that much worse than watermills, and eventually the wind plant makes sure that non-river settling outclasses river settling. But yeah the faith on this one is fairly weak and so is the food, the fact that you need 2 buildings to get the maximum value out of it (and the maximum value not being very impressive) while also limiting the space you're able to settle on is a big turnoff.

Goddess of Festivals. +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 gold for each unique luxury you control.

(A). The faith tone down I think brought it down from OP status. It is still a great pantheon, still one of the best to me, but its no longer completely automatic.

This pantheon is definitely not worth picking anymore. You're committing yourself to getting GoAC levels of faith while not getting the GoAC strong points back (happiness and instant yields without needing improvements).

I actually manually unnerfed this and tried it out, stacking the deck in my favor by playing Indonesia and it still wasn't very impressive. I mean sure eventually I got up to a strong 22 faith/culture/gold per turn from it, but that's like the capped out value, none of those yields matter halfway into the game.

I don't see a good reason to ever pick this one anymore.

Goddess of Love: +10 faith and +10 GAP for each citizen born (Era Scale).

(F). Ultimately I think there are many pantheons that do this better. God of all Creation will give more GAP overall with the happiness, lots of pantheons give more faith overall. (I think god of the expanse gives better burst faith).

This one just doesn't have anything solid going for it.

From your writing it sounds like you've never actually tried it out. This pantheon is really solid for India and China along with almost anyone else doing a semi-wide tradition game. Pick up stuff like Cooperation and maybe some food-bonus along with it and you're solid.

Goddess of Nature: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +3 Faith and +2 culture for Natural Wonders.

(F). I know others like this one, I just do not see the appeal. Ancestor Worship can bag me more culture and faith overall than this one, even with heavy mountain areas. Natural Wonders I just don't find commonly enough to settle to be worth it....maybe its the maps I play?

I guess if you have the unique spot where you start out surrounded by mountains AND natural wonders in close reach than this becomes worth it....maybe. I just feel like there are other pantheons that give as much of a burst, and scale better long term than this one.

I don't like the un-even yields on the natural wonders at all actually.

As for the yields from mountains, I really dislike settling heavily mountained areas, I like being able to work my yields, thank you very much. But the free yields you gain without any sort of hammer investment is really solid. Pick Authority or Progress, settle 5 cities around a mountainchain and suddenly you've got a religion and a your policy-tree done.

Goddess of Protection: +10 hp healed in friendly territory. +1 culture and +1 faith to palace, walls, and barracks.

(N/A). I've been meaning to try this one. Ancestor Worship ultimately is stronger in culture and faith....but double healing is no joke for warring. I don't know, I wonder if this would be better to just take out and lump in with the defender of the faith reformation belief...which also needs some love.

Every time I've tried picking this one an AI have snagged it before me, getting kinda triggered actually.
This one to me feels kinda like Goddess of Fertility, you need two buildings to get value out of it but unlike Fertility, both these buildings are Tier 2, meaning they are more expensive. They are also imho a lot worse than well and Shrine, which are usually the two first buildings you want in a new city anyways.
I guess culture beats out food however, so it got that going for it.

Also, have you actually tried the new Defender of the Faith, it does not really need more love, it's actually really solid.

Goddess of Purity: +1 food and faith on Lakes, Oasis, and Marshes. +1 happiness on rivers.

(C). There is a niche for this one, and that is for a strong capital play on a big lake with a river Ultimately I think a god of the sea or god of the sun will not you more food overall, but the faith can be nice and immediate (not requiring any work). The happiness is okay, hard to put all of your cities on rivers to get the same benefit as a God of All Creation. To me the marsh and oasis benefit is minimal, its really the lakes that could make this work.

I think overall there are better ones, but if I ever get that magical lake start I'll see how strong it really is.

I've started with 20 tiles of lakes within workable distance of my capital once, you only really need 7 or so lakes to guarantee a religion with this one, and that's pretty solid in its own right. Getting happiness for settling rivers feels like gravy on top of that.

Goddess of Renewal:+1 faith and +1 culture for every 2 jungle or 2 forest tiles worked by the city. +1 science and +1 faith from Herbalists.

(C). I think this is missing just one thing. Give it a +1 faith out of the box, and its good to go. Ultimately this is a niche one, but the niche is solid. I think it can be a decent one, it just needs a little starting faith to get it moving.

I've only ever picked this with Iroquois, and 80% of all times I roll iroquois I reroll because of insufficient forest/jungle near my start.
To sum up, this belief is really good if you've got a really forested start and you're playing the iroquois, or brazil I guess. Otherwise I'd probably just deforest the area eventually anyways.

Goddess of Springtime: +1 Faith and +1 culture from Plantations. +2 gold from Markets.

(F). Plantations come later than many other improvements and take a while to build, so this one is a very faith-lite pantheon, and the payoff isn't worth the benefit. There are other pantheons that give more gold, more culture, and more faith (Goddess of Festivals for one).

It looks so tempting for those plantation heavy cities...but its not worth the payout.

This one is A LOT better than festivals, it's actually one of my most picked pantheons this patch. All decent plantation-starts turn monstrous with this pantheon and the boosted markets makes early game economy a lot easier.

Goddess of the Hunt: +1 Faith, +1 Food, and +1 culture from Camps.

(A). Perfect. Camps come decently early, and there are many starts that have a lot of camps in the area. This gives a nice suite of benefits, nicely balanced, one of my favorites.

Haven't gotten a camp-start in this patch yet, but I've always liked this pantheon and I see no reason why it would change.

Goddess of Wisdom: +1 faith for every 15 science per turn. +1 science and +2 faith in every city.

(A, maybe C for OP). I've been trying this one out lately, and man is it good. It actually gives quite a bit of early faith, getting your second city (which you will likely do early) already gives you +4 faith with this guy, and then once you hit your first 15 science that's +5 faith....that's a great platform to build a religion. In fact, I don't think any other pantheon can really match its early game Faith with the possible exception of God of Commerce if you push those early connections or are Carthage.

The science is a good bonus this early in the game, though tapers off later. However, the Faith scaling for this belief is also quite good, not hard to get +50-+60 faith out of this later in the game. Only ancestor worship or goddess of the expanse with crazy border growth is likely going to net you those kind of numbers.

Solid enough, getting some faith for spamming cities and some weak science as well. I have noticed however that I really don't want to do early-game expansions anymore, no matter what strategy I'm doing I'm always slowing down my policyprogression way too much with that.
That being said, 3 yields per city and some decent scaling action later(assuming you expanded) on is absolutely fine.

 

[Galbias]

Goddess of Purity: +1 food and faith on Lakes, Oasis, and Marshes. +1 happiness on rivers.

(C). There is a niche for this one, and that is for a strong capital play on a big lake with a river Ultimately I think a god of the sea or god of the sun will not you more food overall, but the faith can be nice and immediate (not requiring any work). The happiness is okay, hard to put all of your cities on rivers to get the same benefit as a God of All Creation. To me the marsh and oasis benefit is minimal, its really the lakes that could make this work.

I think overall there are better ones, but if I ever get that magical lake start I'll see how strong it really is.

I had a game awhile back where I took a city from a guy who had said pantheon/religion and something like a 7 tile lake. It was definitely good, but at the same time it's the sort of thing that's going to fall off hard later (Lakes and Oases can't be improved so they're going to lose their luster at some point mid-late game, same with Marshes except you'll probably just replace them) and lakes like that are very rare in the first place, so a buff seems fair. Maybe something like +1 faith or culture from every 2 or 3 tiles worked that have Fresh Water to keep with the theme? That would also help it remain relevant later on.

I feel like the Oasis bonus could be increased too considering how spread out Oases seem to be, maybe with Marshes too but hard to say offhand.

Goddess of Fertility: +1 food and +1 faith from shrines/wells. +15% growth rate.

(C). Basically you are picking this to commit to a strong growth strategy...but in an area without rivers, which can make that tricky. Its also not the strongest faith generator. I think there are better ones to do the job, I also agree with others that it should add to watermills too. Its already a narrow niche, it doesn't need to be that narrow.

agreed @ Water Mills

God of Craftsmen: +1 production/+1 gold from Quarries/Stone Works. +3 Faith in Cities with a specialist.

(C). I want to like this one. For a Tradition player its got the early faith you want. I like more hammers especially...but there are just better choices out there. I sometimes feel that this and earth mother should be combined (+3 faith from cities with a specialist, +2 prod from monuments).

This probably does need a small buff, resources improvable with Quarries aren't too common and specialists take awhile to become available (unless you're using Tradition, but even then that's just in the capital).

 

[tompliss]

I had a game awhile back where I took a city from a guy who had said pantheon/religion and something like a 7 tile lake. It was definitely good, but at the same time it's the sort of thing that's going to fall off hard later (Lakes and Oases can't be improved so they're going to lose their luster at some point mid-late game, same with Marshes except you'll probably just replace them) and lakes like that are very rare in the first place, so a buff seems fair. Maybe something like +1 faith or culture from every 2 or 3 tiles worked that have Fresh Water to keep with the theme? That would also help it remain relevant later on.

I think it could be more balanced, regardless of settings and mapscript, if it was something fixed, like +3 faith if the city is adjacent to a lake.

 

[Galbias]

I'd say Fresh Water instead of a lake but yeah, that'd actually make it pretty good.

Goddess of Beauty: +2 faith and +1 culture from World Wonders. +15% production for Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

(C). I am basing this pantheon on the assumption that you get it with Stonehenge. Even with that, its just ok. At this point in the game, culture often drives the speed of wonder building more than hammers. Therefore culture driven pantheons actually have as much if not more advantage in getting those wonders.

The one sneaky benefit of this pantheon is it get converted into tourism late game, which is a nice little side benefit, and what keeps it a C for me.

Getting any Wonders besides Stonehenge on Emperor is very difficult, let alone Immortal/Deity. I think the best thing for this would be to replace the Wonder building bonus with -1 Policy cost for Wonders (or just Pre-Renaissance Wonders); that would give you much more of a fighting chance and the Faith and Culture reward you for succeeding.

Goddess of Wisdom: +1 faith for every 15 science per turn. +1 science and +2 faith in every city.

(A, maybe C for OP). I've been trying this one out lately, and man is it good. It actually gives quite a bit of early faith, getting your second city (which you will likely do early) already gives you +4 faith with this guy, and then once you hit your first 15 science that's +5 faith....that's a great platform to build a religion. In fact, I don't think any other pantheon can really match its early game Faith with the possible exception of God of Commerce if you push those early connections or are Carthage.

Yeah, picked this recently and it's a strong and very safe pick that also scales well into late game, unlike many others. -1 Faith per city would probably be good, or only give 1 Faith to start and require City Connections to get the remaining 1 Faith and 1 Science.

Goddess of Nature: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +3 Faith and +2 culture for Natural Wonders.

(F). I know others like this one, I just do not see the appeal. Ancestor Worship can bag me more culture and faith overall than this one, even with heavy mountain areas. Natural Wonders I just don't find commonly enough to settle to be worth it....maybe its the maps I play?

I guess if you have the unique spot where you start out surrounded by mountains AND natural wonders in close reach than this becomes worth it....maybe. I just feel like there are other pantheons that give as much of a burst, and scale better long term than this one.

I had a game recently where I started fairly close to 3 workable NW tiles (Barrier Reef + another NW) and even in a scenario like that where it's pretty much ideal, it's still not terribly impressive, 9 Faith and 6 Culture is less than I would get from Ancestor Worship with a measly 27 total population and it has no real scaling. I think part of the problem is that Mountains and NWs aren't specifically balanced to be together so you have two halves of two terrain-depedent pantheons that want different terrain.

Anyways, I would say the best thing is actually to split this into two different pantheons, one with the Mountain bonus and one with the NW bonus, and then add some more generic bonuses to both (say, +1 food on hills for the Mountain pantheon, +1 culture in all cities for the NW pantheon or something).

I want to say that +3 Faith from NWs feels weak since in the base game it's +4 per NW and you need a lot more Faith to get a religion in VP, but depending on what the other bonuses end up being they may make up for it. Still, something like +5 Faith would probably be better.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

God of War: +50% increase in ranged combat strength. Gain faith if you win a battle.

(N/A) Never taken this one. Now one question is with power warring, does the bonus here beat the faith of God of the Expanse? If not, than its the city ranged strength vs faster border growth. +50% ranged strength is no joke, but its not the bonus I usually want. This might have good synergy with Aztecs or Celts perhaps.

I'd just like to point out that the Celts cannot have God of War except by conquering it and not founding a religion. Which is, er... thematically apropos I guess?

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

God of war works.

In my last conquest game, I got 7 or 8 Great Prophets before Industrial, and ended the game with 300000 faith in the bank (marathon speed).
Some of this came from buildings, but the majority was done by the little Pantheon that could.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I find God of War overrated, very overrated

Take Ancestor Worship and you get similar Faith (it's superior the larger the maptype is - on Large, Ancestor is better 100% of the time since you will soon get 120-200 people in your empire) AND some nice fast Culture. Better in every way imho. GoW would be way better though if, like in one of my games, you find one of THOSE people who went Diligence + Synagogue religion (or simply are Aztec/Songhai, which get 50bln bonus production per city), they'll have so many troops you'll get a gazillion just cutting through them to their cities. Still no Culture though.

I think most of Faith people get is a mistake - it's actually not from God of War, but Hero Worship. Hero Worship synergises and AI hates it while it also gives you LOTS if you take cities with 20-30 pop, it could be mistaken to be an effect of GoW but really isn't

 

[tu_79]

I've got a rant for God of the Sea. I've tried several times now to get something with it, but it is worthless. Let me explain.

For instance, I try to pick God of the Sea when my civ has synergies with coastal cities, like Carthage, Polynesia, Denmark and old Japan, or if I am settling in a small continent or large island. Carthage and Denmark have incentive to build Lighthouses, while Polynesia can build fishing boats quickly with a trirreme. Only Carthage can skip beelining to lighthouses. By the time I can build lighthouses, my unhappiness is rising alarmingly (no walls, no barracks, no units), so the isolation unhappiness is the lesser of my problems. But if I delay Sailing, I cannot build enough fishing boats to make the pantheon count. Even beelining all that, building shrines before monuments, exploring heavily and suffering unhappiness, I wasn't able to found a religion in King difficulty. A pantheon that ensures founding a religion always may be overpowered, but a pantheon that, after doing everything I can imaging to help founding is unable to found is underpowered to me.

Other than the difficulty to found, the yields are not what I'd say useful. Those atolls and fishing boats are yielding, without any pantheon, lots of food and some gold (after lighthouses, of course). Now, I have a deity to magically help me in my fisherman city and this god gives me... more food. Seriously? What I need is not more food, but production and perhaps some culture. With such a pantheon, I'd settle in those island surrounded by nothing but fish.

I think God of the Sea will be much better this way:
+2 in coastal cities. +1 from fishing boats and atolls. +1 from sea resources.

Now faith production is reliable, just by settling on the coast, but not overpowered. And the sea resources provide something useful, an easy little culture to help expand borders and extra production from fishing boats, making those tiny islands worthy to settle. Working boats won't need to be rushed for founding, hurting happiness.

EDIT: Other options:
+1 from sea resources. +1 +1 from fishing ships and atolls.
This will give faith with Fishing and a bit of luck, allowing to found, and will improve a lot with Sailing.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

God of Sea is awesome though if the map script goes mad and spawns some of THOSE islands.

You know, those ones. Those naughty 1 tile islands surrounded by 50 billion atolls and 30 thousand fishes. Any City on such an unholy tile instantly becomes super-productive and super-religious with the pantheon. It also supports every coastal city with +3 Food, which is pretty noticeable in the long run, esp if you went Authority. Sure, it's not the best pantheon in the game, but for some starts it's the best choice.

Sometimes the map will also give you 3 sea resources on your capital, 3 more somewhere nearby, another 3 there, an unholy atoll island in your sight... That adds up. In that case, the pantheon does as it should - it propels you forward as long as you settle what it tells you.

I do not dislike your idea though, but GoS is not really the worst one. It's fine, okay and has its niche. God of Festivals, Earth Mother, world wonders, god of getting Faith/GA points for birth, god of shrine and wells (Fertility IIRC?) are all way worse.

 

[Strigvir]

The spots you've mentioned aren't relevant at the stage GoS has to give you religion.

 

[tu_79]

God of Sea is awesome though if the map script goes mad and spawns some of THOSE islands.

You know, those ones. Those naughty 1 tile islands surrounded by 50 billion atolls and 30 thousand fishes. Any City on such an unholy tile instantly becomes super-productive and super-religious with the pantheon. It also supports every coastal city with +3 Food, which is pretty noticeable in the long run, esp if you went Authority. Sure, it's not the best pantheon in the game, but for some starts it's the best choice.

Sometimes the map will also give you 3 sea resources on your capital, 3 more somewhere nearby, another 3 there, an unholy atoll island in your sight... That adds up. In that case, the pantheon does as it should - it propels you forward as long as you settle what it tells you.

I do not dislike your idea though, but GoS is not really the worst one. It's fine, okay and has its niche. God of Festivals, Earth Mother, world wonders, god of getting Faith/GA points for birth, god of shrine and wells (Fertility IIRC?) are all way worse.

Funny thing is that after three tryings with God of the Sea, my first founded religion was with Goddess of Fertility. Yes, shrines and wells. Only thing I needed was to found every city far away from fresh water. If I could keep my pantheon regardless the main religion I wouldn't mind.

Maybe I have to note that I am playing with Tectonics maps, so there is just 2-3 sea resources per city. But as Strigvir said, by the time you can work those tiles it's too late.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

The spots you've mentioned aren't relevant at the stage GoS has to give you religion.

Not really, the moment you get fishing those spots are available, and there's no way you'll found without Fishing.

 

[tu_79]

Not really, the moment you get fishing those spots are available, and there's no way you'll found without Fishing.

I tried beelining to Fishing (I tried beelining to Sailing too, to save some working boats with trirremes but it was useless, coming so late). Then, I have in Capital one sea luxury and a couple fish, and some more fish nearby. If I settle close to a single fish, it takes too long to reach the next one. Even in my capital, only two sea resources are inside borders. To reach the rest I have to spend gold (the cultural expansion prefers other resource rich land tiles), and to rush working boats too. Short story, not enough gold for everything.

So I have two cities with shrines, the Stonehenge, one fishing ship, other being produced, a couple of units exploring and suddenly my happiness drop. I have no barracks, no walls, almost no units and half of them are exploring, little cash, two fishes that I cannot reach yet and more settling spots that I fear to settle given my unhappiness and lack of units. Some turns later there is no religion left to found.

You may think that there weren't enough sea resources to try a God of the Sea pantheon (perhaps Communitas gives more sea resources?). But I know that, being a coastal civ, it will be best for my civ in the long run, so I wanted to try it even when there weren't so many fishes within two tiles of my capital. Perhaps focusing a little more on fishing boats (spending money only to expand borders, exploring later) I could have found, but at what price?
Perhaps starting with Tradition will allow a faster tech research and faster border expansion, making it more feasible, but somehow I can't see a tradition start for a civ that can settle isolated continents and islands since the beginning.

Let me ask, who wants to go with a GoS pantheon? Seafaring civs and perhaps a civ that, starting with a sea luxury or two, rushed to Fishing and discovered many fishes nearby (extremely rare). Giving +2 to coastal cities allows founding a religion for any civ that prioritizes shrines and settle just on coastal tiles (thus making a pious effort of not building monuments first, and leaving capital underdeveloped), that doesn't rely in RNG. And then, the bonus to fishing boats and atolls (+1 +1 ), letting your civ thrive on islands, once your religion is secured.

 

[Workerspam]

The only time I consider going with God of the Sea is if I start with a sea resource as my civ's primary resource or if I've miraculously spawned within site of an Atoll (or two) in addition to a single sea resource. Basically, I need a minimum of two tiles in my capital that can benefit from GoS from the start. Any fish that might appear once I discover Fishing are simply a bonus. And even then you will usually have to sacrifice something to pump out the work boats, be it early military, an early settler, or later start on Stonehenge.

A coastal civ or coastal start alone makes going for GoS too risky otherwise, short of a faith based Natural Wonder to supplement your faith; you simply have to have early access to the resource to make it worthwhile. But I think that's the case for just about all the resource based pantheons.

 

[Gazebo]

The only time I consider going with God of the Sea is if I start with a sea resource as my civ's primary resource or if I've miraculously spawned within site of an Atoll (or two) in addition to a single sea resource. Basically, I need a minimum of two tiles in my capital that can benefit from GoS from the start. Any fish that might appear once I discover Fishing are simply a bonus. And even then you will usually have to sacrifice something to pump out the work boats, be it early military, an early settler, or later start on Stonehenge.

A coastal civ or coastal start alone makes going for GoS too risky otherwise, short of a faith based Natural Wonder to supplement your faith; you simply have to have early access to the resource to make it worthwhile. But I think that's the case for just about all the resource based pantheons.

I'd say that most resource-based Pantheons are the same. You need at least two of the matching resource/feature to make it worthwhile.

G

 

[tu_79]

I'd say that most resource-based Pantheons are the same. You need at least two of the matching resource/feature to make it worthwhile.

G

I've played with other resource-based pantheons, and for me, God of the Sea is one of the most difficult to found with, other than the pantheon for the plantations. I'll give it another shoot, but right now, Fertility is going well (with, well, wells).

 

[Gazebo]

I've played with other resource-based pantheons, and for me, God of the Sea is one of the most difficult to found with, other than the pantheon for the plantations. I'll give it another shoot, but right now, Fertility is going well (with, well, wells).

Well, well, well...

G