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[Tuning] Religion: Reformation Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    @King Phaedron , you're referring to BNW policies. I'm not sure if you are playing with Community Patch or not, but this thread is for those with Community Patch and Vox Populi installed, as only Vox Populi has new policies/beliefs to discuss.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  2. psparky

    psparky Chieftain

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    I know the post you were replying to was actually about BNW, but I think the point he was making was actually true for VP. Reformation beliefs like Jesuit Education do apply at the city level. I've definitely captured cities with religions with that reformation belief and been able to buy universities etc before converting them to my religion.

    Unless it's changed (relatively) recently.
     
    tu_79 and CrazyG like this.
  3. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    IIRC Reformation beliefs sometimes work for the founder only and others for the follower.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    This never happened to me. I was never able to use a reformation belief from a religion I don't control. But I guess I never conquered someone with Jesuit Education, or I didn't notice.
     
  5. Legen

    Legen Chieftain

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    I've seen Crusader Spirit and Defender of the Faith applying to players other than the founder, and I've experienced them being used against me when I was the founder. If TtGoG isn't working for players beyond the founder, it is likely bugged.
     
  6. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I am pretty sure it's intentional though, because the entire empire-wide ability would be stealable with just one city being converted, which would be too OP. It didn't work beyond the founder even back in BNW, so that probably got carried over to VP.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Is it just me or is Defender of the Faith really good?
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its pretty damn good
     
  9. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I'm using it my current Babylon game where I've gone wide and am playing defensively and it has treated me well. The bonus faith/culture is also welcome.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  11. andersw

    andersw Chieftain

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    With fealty it becomes a bit obscene, add spain uniqe castle and its borderline unbreakable.
    The extra yields are nice but not game breaking.
    Combat bonuses are good, 15%+15% in own lands is a lot.

    For successful warmongering I think crusader spirit is better.
    Defender is possibly better on the really high difficulties?
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah I think because on high difficulties the default war position is:

    1) Sit back in your own territory
    2) Enemy comes in
    3) Snipe to kingdom come.
    4) Rinse/Repeat until WW kicks in
    5) Then invade.

    So DOTF attack bonus in your own lands sees a lot of use.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I don't really see a reason for defender's combat bonus to be higher than crusader's.

    Don't overlook the yields either. Usually when I reform it provides more culture than Faith of the Masses does, while also generating faith. I think grabbing it for yields and a little bit of extra security is completely reasonable.
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    DOTF seems a bit OP to me as well, in comparison even to the yield policies. It outyields the Culture buildings reformation in culture, provides it earlier and combined with faith while having the best side gain. Sure, the Culture one will edge out sooner or later if you can afford the buildings and have a really solid Faith generator like Order, but that is too late.

    What's interesting is DOTF's percentages can sometimes be more powerful for warmongering than Crusader Spirit's. If you fight against established enemies who are on your borders that have tons of units, DOTF's CS will exist, CS's won't matter. If they don't have units anywhere so you can penetrate their defenses or it's where you start the assault, then CS is better, but the percentages are good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Ah, DOTF shouldn't be higher than CS, that's a typo. Should both be 20.

    G
     
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  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I don't understand the whole "Defender of the Faith > Faith of the Masses" argument.

    Faith of the Masses provides Amphitheaters for the cheap cost of 200:c5faith:, which is very affordable to me. Amphitheaters provide +2 base :c5culture: so it becomes a quick +4:c5culture: building in every city, even more yields if you have the associated Luxuries (I have gotten times where purchasing an Amphitheater would give me +8:c5culture: in a city). Being able to free up :c5production: from an Amphitheater also means you can focus on Temples/Baths for even more Culture, or whatever other infrastructure you'd normally build over an Amphitheater at this time.

    Defender of the Faith's +3:c5culture:/+2:c5faith: early on from Walls is great but it usually doesn't singlehandedly outperform Faith of the Masses until you build Castles for an extra +3:c5culture:/+2:c5faith:. Castles cost 300:c5production:unless you've gone Fealty so it's a significant investment you're putting in for that :c5culture:. That's 300:c5production: that you most likely could have used to get a Temple/Baths/Amphitheatre/University/Chancery up faster. So unless you've gone Fealty or need the Castles for :c5strength: it's not really free :c5culture:. I can see how it would be very powerful for Spain or Japan though.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    While I do think Arsenals are optional, I almost always build Castles, fealty or no. So DOTF's yields are pretty darn good.

    Now I agree that the faith purchasing power is often unappreciated, especially for very wide civs, but at the same time, you can argue that DOTF's combat bonus means you have to build less troops, which also saves you hammers.
     
  18. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I guess it depends on how badly you need the defense then. I can get away with not building Castles till like late Renaissance or Industrial in most of my cities.

    My comparison has flaws (though to be fair I also didn't take into account Faith of the Masses +1:c5happy: per 2 cities, which is a lot), and don't get me wrong, +6:c5culture:/+4:c5faith: in every city with Walls/Castles and +30% CS defending against other Religions is a very powerful Reformation, but I don't think saying it definitively outclasses Faith of the Masses is fair.

    I will say that I think Jesuit Education is kind of weak in comparison to DoTF/FoTM though. The yields are more delayed than FoTM, Universities cost more :c5faith: and I would argue that at this point :c5culture: > :c5science:.
     
  19. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

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    Agree with Jesuit Education being weak. It gives +2 science per building for 3 buildings, for a total of +6 science, compared to Faith of the Masses +2 culture to 5 buildings for a total of +10 culture. Instead of happiness for every 2 cities, it gives faith per great person expended, but so little as to be negligible.

    Faith of the masses produces less strict culture than Defender of the Faith at some points but the happiness and faith buying for those cities means that its useful in other places. I wouldn't say its strictly inferior.
     
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