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[Tuning] Religion - Round 2!

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So in the round 2 of tuning, I want to incorporate recent changes and people's feedback to narrow down the list to the remaining religious beliefs that may still need love. We are only going to look at C and F ranks.

    Overall, I will use a simple ranking system to look at them.

    A - Great, no change (not shown in round 2)
    C - Is a bit too weak, a bit too strong, or just not quite interesting enough. Needs some possible adjustment.
    F - Is too weak or too strong, and needs some love.

    This thread will focus on all of the religious belief, with the exception of Pantheons that are still in their own thread.

    Founder Beliefs

    Way of the Pilgrim: (N/A)

    (Building) +4 Faith/+2 Culture. +4 Art/Artifact Slots. +5 Tourism for Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain 150 Tourism with religion spread (Era Scale)

    This one got a big bump from G (150 tourism instead of 50 with religious spread). I haven't tried it myself, it is enough to make it an A now?

    Follower Beliefs:

    Asceticism: +1 Food per 2 followers (max +20): (F). Ultimately I don't think changing the cap on this one changed anything, its still weaker than other yields. I think you should go the other way with this one, give it a +1 per follower, but with a harsh cap (like +7/8). That way it gives you the strong food early when you want it, but tapers off into the mid game, which give it a different niche than some of the other beliefs here.

    +1 Science per 2 followers (max +15): (C). Science is a mid level yield in strength, and gets a nice max to help in the capital. There are generally better choices, but if your playing the strong science game (and already choose Synagogues), then this can be a decent companion.

    Pagodas: 1 work of art slot. Reduces Boredom. +2 to all city yields for each religion present. (N/A)

    This one was pretty heavily changed, it was once considered in the top tier of founder beliefs, how does it rank now?

    Mandirs: +3 Faith/+2 Food. +10% food. Reduces Poverty. Spies cannot assassinate great people or disrupt production. 25% pressure/20% conversion resistance.

    (C) Changed to a C based on community feedback.

    Stupas: +3 Faith/+2 GA Points. Gain +2 GA points/+4 Tourism with Architecture. Reduces Illiteracy. +25% pressure increase/20% conversion resistance.

    (C) Changed to a C based on community feedback.

    Enhancer Beliefs

    Resilience: Prophets 25% stronger, 25% less faith. Rival Inquisitors and Prophets reduce religious pressure by 75% instead of 100%.

    (C) I still think other beliefs do the job better.

    Ritual: Religion spreads 30% farther away, and double speed to friendly city states.

    (N/A) This one received a buff since its last review, I haven't used it myself, what are people's thoughts?

    Zealotry: Purchase land units with faith.

    (C) Community has made some good points that this one is very weak compared to Tithes. Why buy units with faith when I can....just have more gold and buy units?

    Reformation Beliefs

    Faith of the Masses: Buy Opera Houses, Museums, and Broadcast towers with faith.

    (C) On the one hand, this saves you a lot of hammers, and hammers are always useful. On the other, its a lot of faith at a time when you get use that faith to buy Great Writers for example. I don't know how it balances out, but I don't think its the strongest tool in the deck here.

    Jesuit Education: Buy Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.

    (C) For pretty much the same reason as Faith of the Masses. The benefit is nice, I just think there are better ones here that also don't burn your faith.

    Knowledge through Devotion: +3 faith/+1 culture for each landmark and great person improvement. +1 culture to Great Works

    (C) - I think the culture bump to great works helped, but its still just an ok belief to me.

    Sacred Sites: Buildings purchased with faith give +2 tourism, Hermitage gives +5 culture/+5 tourism.

    (C) I give it a C since for cultural players it gives them that needed tourism, but there are just much much better beliefs here, even if you have 2 religious buildings per city. A weak C....and only for cultural players.
     
  2. thecraftybee

    thecraftybee Warlord

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    I think from a balance POV, that most of these achieving Cs are a passing grade. However, I'd be interested in seeing minor changes to see if they can be pushed into an A grade.

    Follower

    Asceticism - I'd prefer to change the scaling to 2 food per 3 followers. max 8 food just seems really boring to me, but this tenet could do with a boost.

    Scholarship - Similar to above, change to 2 science per 3 followers.

    I think Veneration and Thrift are in a good spot, but Food and Science would be too powerful on a 1 for 1, so I think we should just split the difference and go 2 for 3.

    On all the yield per follower tenets, I really do not think a cap is needed. It feels punitive for tall cities. When a 40 pop city gets to pop 42, is it even important that it gets an extra 1 yield?

    Mandirs - I'm happy with these.

    Stupas - I find that I get eternal golden ages often enough that GAPs feel really week. I'd prefer to see this building do something during a GA instead.


    Enhancer

    Resilience - I think this needs a slight boost. Perhaps double the bonus from Religious National Wonders from Holy Sites, so get 10C/10F/10P etc instead of 5?, or a general boost to any Holy Site.

    Zealotry - not taken this in a long time. But to perhaps make it better, allow you to purchase with gold and faith in the same city at the same time. I may be wrong but at present you can only purchase once right now, whether with gold or faith? This would then be amazing for war - double units purchasing. If you can already do this, then, meh.


    Reformation

    Faith of the Masses - I think this needs a minor boost - perhaps gain 1C for every 10-15 Faith you produce each turn.

    Jesuit - similar to FOTM - add 1S for every 10-15 Faith you produce.

    I never take the above two whenever I'm Progress as I feel as though I have the hammers already. I wouldn't mind seeing the above boosted as semi indirect buff to Tradition and Honour.

    Knowledge through Devotion - just because of the name, I would love to see some Science added into the yields. I also think this could do with a slight boost. 1F/1C/1S from GP tiles, 1F/1C/1S from GW. That way, you are getting 3 yields from using your GEMSs or GWAMs
    instead of 4 and 1 respectively.

    Sacred Sites - I never think to go for this one outside of Byzantium. Wouldn't mind seeing the Hermitage bonus doubled, or the buildings get an additional 2F or 1C on top of the 2 Tourism. But something small.
     
  3. Horvath Broncos

    Horvath Broncos Warlord

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    I think asceticism can be very good in certain situations like in my last game with Zulu. I was in a continent that was 90% of tundra and snow. I obviosly took the tundra pantheon and when I found religion I knew I had to do something to get more food that I would be able to work those super production tundra tiles. I would have prefered Mandirs but they were taken so only way to get more food with religion was asceticism. It worked wonders with my pantheon. I was able to work tons of 1f tiles with bazillion production and still work tons of specialists. Asceticism may not be the best belief in most cases or even near the best but in this kinda situations it works very nicely as it is. Other game where I started in a huge desert with kamehameha I was able to work those 0f Moai tiles thanks to asceticism.
     
  4. tompliss

    tompliss Warlord

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    Little question about the Reformation beliefs so I can make up my mind :
    Do the Crusader and the defender of the faith grant their bonuses to following (AKA non founder but majority) civs ?
     
  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think yes. At least I always see DoTF percentage added to unit strength on friendly lands if that religion is their majority. One game IIRC Pocatello spread it to Alexander and his Hoplites were standing up to my level 8 Danish Tercio who used to be Berserkers , that was pretty unholy. Granted I did have like 3 capitals then, but still.


    EDIT: Wait not so sure about that now, I might be mistaking that game with the other one and in this one Alex founded. I am unsure now.

    Conquering a continent where a religious runaway converted all to a religion with DotF while being without Crusader Spirit and/or high unit LVL and/or tech advantage and/or Autocracy is a real pain, perhaps too much so. I think DoTF should get only 10% or 12.5% CS at most for Friendly lands/religion difference, it's seriously a bit too strong now.

    Anyway, from the topic I think Ascetism might need a buff (maybe 1F per 1 follower, but only up to 10/15)?

    Resilience with Veneration + something strong Ancestor Worship/God of Commerce is pretty neat, as it'll give you more GPs (and more holy sites). But yeah, I think it needs a bit more, maybe +1 of all yields per Holy Site.

    Pagoda is okay. Still good. At most I'd give it, like, +1 Faith base. In certain conditions it's still one of the best.

    Cooperation I'd buff from 7 per pop to 8 per pop. I'm not taking it anymore, it got hit too hard. 8 would also make it scale much better on longer game speeds, as even numbers are treated and scaled fairly, unlike the uneven ones.

    CATHEDRAL
    needs a nerf. If you're heavy on farms, it's too strong, especially if you snatch Imperialism's +1F+1P per Farm. I think it needs to go back to 1 Gold per farm, but instead provide a base 3F 3G 2/3 P or C. Better on cities with little Farms, but it won't give you 10P 13G 3F in some cities as it can currently.

    Scholarship
    is good, you can't buff it unless you want it to become a "turn into Sejong" belief. It'd be broken if it got anything more.

    Zealotry is awful. If I go conquest and am religious, I will get Crusader Spirit at one point of the other. That means I can just get enough Gold from conquest to build my army (if I need any more of it, because my veterans could be enough), especially once I finish Imperialism.

    Maybe, units bought with Faith receive a random, free Promotion they'd have access to on a level up? It'd actually enhance your fighting. Or +10 XP for all fresh new recruits. Or +3Faith in all cities with a garrison. It needs something more.

    Reformation:

    Basically the only 4 that are any good are Crusader Spirit, Defender of the Faith, Glory of God and Knowledge through Devotion (the last being worse than the other 3, but still not awful) The rest I'd never, ever take unless forced to.

    I'd give them some yields, like Jesuit +X yields for buildings/wonders with Scientist slot and/or Scientist points, while Masses would get yields for buildings providing Great work/GWAM slots or points.
     
  6. thunderbird_14

    thunderbird_14 Prince

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    Reformation Beliefs only affects those who are founder/controls Holy City.

    EDIT: Ninjad

    EDIT: DotF is fine place right now, it makes aggresive players commit more effort and to make domination victory a little harder, on top of that, aggresive players tend to have bigger armies so DotF deserves a bigger bonus than the Crusader one.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So in summary, in a very niche scenario...you still thought another belief was better but couldn't take it, yet still found this one decent.

    Sounds like a c or an f rank to me:)
     
  8. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    I'm fine with Zealotry. Most of the Enhancer beliefs are kind of marginal anyways, and having somewhere to dump your faith midgame is nice if you're planning on warmongering and have good Faith generation going (usually you get to a point pre-Industrial era where religion has been spread to most areas so Missionaries are useless and I usually just end up letting it build up and spawn some more GPs, which are nice but not terribly useful unless you need that little extra push for Reformation). Though it is kind of odd that you can't buy sea/air units with it.

    Didn't it previously have a bonus to trade routes? It definitely seemed like it needed nerfing in the past couple of games I had (never got it myself, it's one of the ones that AIs seem to beeline for), it generated pretty ridiculous amounts of pressure once it had spread a bit, to the point where my fringe cities or city-states were constantly getting flipped and I had to buy Inquisitors to fix them in a lot of games if I didn't have a buffer zone.
     
  9. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    Wait, what?

    My default pick, whenever I am am not pursuing a very dedicated plan (which would be sacred sites or crusader spirit for example) is One True Faith. It's just the best.

    It gives you free votes, at a time where votes are very scarce. Together with the religious authority (which is a given unless you got it from the Basilika) you will be the dominating power in the congress for a long time. It even surpasses the free votes of the statecraft leaders.
    Add in the fact that it makes it easy to convert a civ or two to your faith thanks to better missionaries, you can even push through an early world religion, locking congress dominace for even longer - without investing anything else into it.

    My clear first pick.
     
  10. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I forgot about this one and can't remember what it did, but I still never pick it because I always go Crusader Spirit

    I'm too much of a warmongering menace to the world. But yeah, if I was going diplomatic I'd likely go OTF, so disregard my post and make it 5 good reformation beliefs, not 4.
     
  11. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    One World, One Religion (which I assume is the same thing as One True Faith) seems underpowered to me. 1 vote per 8 CS is very little (same as Consulates Policy which also gives you a 50% bonus to CS rigging, and half the amount that Forbidden Palace gives you). I'd say doubling that to 2 votes per 8 CS would be better or maybe even tripled, a Reformation belief shouldn't be on par with a random Policy. The bonus to Missionary strength doesn't seem very useful either, by the time you reform most religions are rooted in place and Missionaries can't convert much, you need GPs or Inquisitors. It seems to be something that would make more sense on an Enhancer Belief, not Reformation.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Having used one world one religion a lot recently I'll stronger disagree. The missionary erosion is quite strong...I find it is very powerful at converting rooted religions, and I don't need a lot of GP
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Some changes were made to religions based on feedback here. See 9/30 and report back.
     
  14. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    Here's the ranking system thing again, this is based on Oct 9 version.

    FOUNDER BELIEFS

    Apostolic Tradition: B+

    (Building) +4 GA points/+4 Faith. +5 GA points from Holy Sites
    (General) Gain GA when spread religion (era scale).

    This has a niche for GA focused civs. And it is fine as it is. It's not for every civ.

    Ceremonial Burial: A

    (Building) +5 Faith. +5 Faith from Holy Sites. Gain Faith when your own unit is killed.
    (General) Gain 25 Faith/50 Culture when expending a Great Person (Era Scale).

    Great for GP gameplay.

    Council of Elders: B

    (Building) +4 Faith, +5 Food. +5 Science from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain science when spreading religion (Era Scale).

    This has gotten better overall, but it's only if you really need help with science. So it fills its niche.

    Hero Worship: A+

    (Building) +5 Faith, +15% Military Production. +5 Production from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Faith and GA points when conquering a city (Era/City Population scale).

    Best holy site. Best for warmongering civs.

    Holy Law: B

    (Building) +4 Faith, +6 Gold. +5 Gold to Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Faith, Science, and Gold when purchasing a policy (Era Scale).

    Wonder hog founder but only if you tech far enough. Not as good overall as I expected, but it's not too bad.

    Mandate of Heaven: C

    (Building) +2 Faith/Culture/Food/Science/Gold/Production. +5 Faith for Holy Sites.
    (General) +15% to all yields of Holy City during a Golden Age.

    I think this directly competes with Apostolic tradition and it's losing because of the lack of GA points. This isn't bad, but it's just the backup plan if someone else took apostolic tradition away from you.

    Theocratic Rule: C

    (Building) +10 Faith. +5 culture for Holy Sites.
    (General) WLTKD increases Faith/Culture/Gold/Science by 15%.

    I think only Progress/Authority China would want this because they're the only ones who can reliably hit that WLTKD (or WLTED) for all of their cities. I personally don't use enough merchants to get WLTKD enough to justify taking this, and even then, I would probably just go Ceremonial burial anyway for culture bonuses.

    Way of the Pilgrim: C-

    (Building) +4 Faith/+2 Culture. +4 Art/Artifact Slots. +5 Tourism for Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Tourism with religion spread (Era Scale)

    Subpar. It just doesn't do enough to make a difference compared to the other choices. Then again, I tried to use this with Carthage Progress->Aesthetics as a test, so maybe that's why it's not as effective.

    Way of Transcendence: A

    (Building) +3 Faith/+5 culture. +5 Food from Holy Sites
    (General) +300 to all yields when you enter a new era (Era Scale).

    If you ever get a religion before classical, this is the way to go. It's way stronger than I expected when I had the chance to try it out and I snowballed really hard that game.

    FOLLOWER BELIEFS

    Asceticism: C

    +1 Food per follower (max 15)

    I think this is fine as is, but it's just that food is still less valuable than other yields, thus the priority on this is very low.

    Cathedrals: F

    Faith building: +3 faith, +3 gold, Farms +1 gold/+1 prod, reduce poverty, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great art slot

    Ok, since it gives farms production, you'll need a lot of farms to make this worth more than thrift. Unless you're greedy as hell and took thrift as well and this is your secondary.

    Churches: A

    Faith building: +4 faith, Missionaries can spread religion 3 times, reduce boredom, 50% pressure/20% resistance, great music slot

    Probably the best building as it allows more mileage out of your missionaries. You usually only need to build one of these and start spamming missionaries.

    Cooperation: C

    +7 yields every citizen born. Scales with era.

    There are just better choices than this I think. I haven't tested it, but it doesn't appeal to me like the others.

    Diligence: A+

    +1 Production per 2 followers (max 20)

    Hands down for one of the best beliefs. Free production for all your cities. The only downside is if you spread your religion.

    Inspiration: A-

    +1 Culture per 2 followers (max 10)

    Culture is king at the moment, but this is extremely limited still. It's here because it is still valuable to a degree.

    Mandirs: B

    Faith building: +3 faith, +2 food, +10% food, reduce poverty, spies cannot assassinate GP, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great music slot

    Not completely bad, seeing as how often the player gets spied on.

    Mastery: A

    Specialists get +2 of their primary yield

    If you're not taking this and you're tradition, you're usually losing out. It's just simply too good to ignore as tradition, getting bonus culture and production from your specialist slots.

    Mosque: B

    Faith building: +3 faith, +2 science, reduce illiteracy, +20% culture during GA, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great writing slot

    Mosques are only good because of their ability to boost culture. The rest are just cherries, but too bad it isn't the icing.

    Orders: A-

    Faith building: +2 faith, +10 def/+50 hp on city, +15 exp and morale bonus for land military units, reduce crime, 25% pressure/20% resistance

    Pretty good for conquest. This gives the ability to all your cities to have the morale bonus, instead of only one city, which allows for more effective armies coming from different cities. The exp bonus is hardly relevant (unless you're shaka).

    Pagodas: B

    Faith building: +2 to all yields for every religion that has a follower in city, great art slot

    Since the change to Pagodas, it has been pretty good. However, it's a risky payoff as you will have to deal with unhappiness from religious division.

    Scholarship: C+

    +1 Science per 2 followers (max 10)

    Science...isn't that important.

    Stupas: C

    Faith building: +3 faith, +2 GAP, +4 tourism (architecture), reduce illiteracy, 25% pressure/20% resistance

    Far better options elsewhere. Doesn't even have a great work slot.

    Synagogues: B+

    Faith building: +2 Faith, +3 production, reduce crime, +15% science during WLTKD, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great writing slot

    The production bonus is pretty valuable. This is probably the second best general building.

    Thrift: A+

    +1 Gold per follower (max 20)

    After the buff, this has been really noticeable getting that ton of income early on. It allows for a lot of investments and buying units when you have to build up the cities.

    Veneration: S

    +1 Faith per follower (max 10)

    When I tried this, it's actually extremely good. Maybe even TOO good. I am usually able to spread my religion for a bit with this and then work towards enhancing a few turns later. This is a pretty big faith snowball and you WILL generally overwhelm whatever other religions are out there in record time if you take tithes with this (I actually wiped out every other religion before the world congress was even found, this was without the need of conquest).

    ENHANCER BELIEFS

    Clericalism:
    C
    +1 happy per two cities following religion, +15 to resting influence for CS following religion

    Not a good choice, even for diplomatic focused civs.

    Evangalism: B
    Get science when spread religion to foreign city. Missionary conversion strength +25%.

    Good for spreading your religion around, but there are just better options currently.

    Pacifism: C
    Missionaries/Inquisitors cost 30% less faith. Holy City gains +1 happy per 6 followers in non-enemy foreign cities.

    Again, better options. This isn't necessary if you picked piety tree.

    Resilience: F
    Prophets 25% stronger, 25% less faith. Rival Inquisitors and Prophets reduce religious pressure by 75% instead of 100%.

    This is terrible, unless I'm purely spamming prophets for holy sites, which I probably won't, it's just not worth it at since I don't use prophets to convert cities.

    Ritual: F (S for India)
    Religion spreads 30% farther away, and double speed to friendly city states. Pressure via trade routes tripled.

    When you have missionaries, this isn't necessary. But when you don't, absolutely, though you do give up the better stuff.

    Scripture: C
    Religion spreads 30% faster (60% faster with printing press). Spies exert extra religious pressure on cities.

    I can only see this being necessary against either India or Spain, otherwise...this is just overshadowed.

    Sainthood: A
    +1 science/culture in holy city for every 6 followers in foreign cities. 100 Faith for popping a great person (Era scale).

    Really good to keep your culture and science competitive (or to get it to insane levels).

    Tithes: S+
    +200 gold per city converted. +1 gold/faith per 4 followers in foreign cities.

    For all your needs and purposes. This is THE enhancer belief that allows your religion to snowball out of control.

    Zealotry: F
    Purchase land units with faith.

    Unnecessary. Faith would be better spent elsewhere.

    REFORMATION BELIEFS

    Crusader Spirit
    : S
    +10% CS in enemy lands, +10% CS against those with opposing religion. Receive gold and culture when you conquer cities.

    +20% CS is nothing to sneeze at. However, if you've cleaned house on the religion, then +10% CS isn't worth a reformation, but that bonus culture and gold may be good enough.

    Defender of the Faith: B+
    +15% CS against people in your own lands, +15% CS against those of an opposing religion. +2 faith/+3 culture per defensive buildings.

    This is good for a defensive turtling civ. However, being defensive is generally a bad thing, so I'm just assuming that you'll be taking this for +4 faith and +6 culture in your cities (for walls and castles). It's not bad...but there are just better choices.

    Faith of the Masses: B+
    Buy Opera Houses, Museums, and Broadcast towers with faith. +5 culture each.

    Saves hammers, gives culture. It's actually decent overall.

    Global Commandments: A-
    Gain +10 Science, Gold, Culture, Faith, and GA points per turn while host of the WC. Gain 150 of those same yields when you pass a resolution. Era Scale on both bonuses.

    It's good, but risky. You have to be well ahead of everyone else diplomatically for this to stick.

    Jesuit Education: C
    Buy Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith. +5 science each.

    Again...science isn't as good as culture in this mod, it's ok, but "ok" just isn't good enough.

    Knowledge through Devotion: F
    +3 faith/+1 culture for each landmark and great person improvement. GW gives +1 culture.

    Planting great people when you reach this starts to get questionable. And getting faith for the planted people isn't appealing enough for me to take this over the other choices.

    One World, One Religion: S
    Gain +1 votes per 8 CS, missionaries erode existing religious pressure.

    I have learned that if you control the world congress, people will suffer far greater than you expect. Passing your religion is a huge advantage when you get more votes and get tourism bonus (and *gasp*, more religious pressure). Oh wait, you probably wiped out their religion anyways when your missionaries are basically mini-prophets.

    Sacred Sites: C
    Hotels and buildings purchased with faith give +3 tourism, Hermitage gives +10 culture/+10 tourism.

    You honestly should be grabbing Faith of the Masses instead. The tourism isn't worth it unless you're have like 20+ cities (byzantium specific strat).

    To the Glory of God: A
    Purchase any type of GP with faith. Gain +30 gold, science, culture, and faith when a Great Person is expended (ERA Scale).

    While the gains were nerfed, this is still one of the better choices for GP spam play. The versatility is also pretty good when you can choose which one to use.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    These are the only two that stood out to me. Should the GPT/FPT from Tithes be brought down to per 6 or per 8?

    Second, You missed the second part of Zealotry that has to do with Strategic Resources.
     
  16. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    I think we should try per 6 first on Tithes. I like to nerf things little by little unless it's something extremely severe (like mandeluke cavalry are the only things atm that makes everything trivial).

    And even with the strategic resources for zealotry, it would bump it to a C for the rare occasion that I want more strategic resources but can't conquer it, which generally doesn't happen.

    Edit:
    I'd like to add that in most of my games now, I default to veneration/tithes and get a dominating religion. The optimal enhancer is actually one world, one religion since it'll allow my missionaries to wipe out every other religion. For my second follower belief, I try to go for churches if possible, if not, it's usually in the order of Diligence -> Inspiration -> Thrift.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  17. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Well, Zealotry is not THAT bad if you play someone who gets lots, lots of Faith and took a heavy faith generator like Ancestor Worship + Hero Worship (so much Faith I got as Japan with this combo + Dojo Faith bursts, that if I wanted to get a Great Prophet on Industrial, I'd have needed to pay like 50 or 100k faith for him. Or 500k? I forgot, but it was many, many times more than other GPs). At that point, it would have been cool if I could spend some of that Faith.

    That's also because at that point when wide, you can gain Faith faster than you can possibly spend it (because GP have lots of turns of cooldown before they can be bought again), so you can just as well buy some Faith guys.

    But let's be real, Tithe is better at everything and Zealotry's +25% is not enough. Definitely not good enough that AI should ALWAYS first pick it as an enhancer. Like seriously, why AI?

    Maybe grant it some +Culture and/or +Faith from strategic resources and/or +GG/GA points to Holy Sites or, perhaps, GG/GA points for conquering cities of other faith?, or free XP for Faith-bought units. But definitely make AI less obsessed with it. I don't think I've had a single game where an AI didn't firstpick it after the buff (were the flavours of Zealotry changed?), and they've typically always ignored it before. If it's not going conquest while on a heavy faith generator civ, it should chill out because it's not going to help them much anyway. Just like Hero Worship, only aggressive AI should really consider it as it is, and only if they have some decent Faith generation.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,024
    Disagree strongly here. The happiness bonus is amazing with a strong religious spread, you can go wide and rarely worry about happiness with this one in tow.
     
  19. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    102
    AI values zealotry very highly because they can use those strategic resources better when their unit cap isn't as restrictive as a player's unit cap. Also, you can tell they sometimes overvalue the strategic resources by their trade deals.

    Edit to respond to Stalker (posted right before me): The happiness bonus doesn't compare to the following:
    Tithes
    Sainthood
    Evangelism

    And with the AI prioritizing zealotry, you are likely to get any of the above, which is better than pacifism.
     
  20. avl8

    avl8 Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    From my experience on immortal both Cathedrals and Pacifism is way too good compared to other options.

    Cathedrals
    at the moment strictly better than any other religious building. It provides decent base yields but more important, cathedrals provides very strong scaling power through farm network.
    Farms already got cluster bonuses, with cathedrals you get even more growth from each farm.
    Other religious buildings simply gives you some stats, a great work slot and some niche bonus. Only cathedrals give both flat decent stats and decent scaling.
    You can compare Cathedral to Mandir's "growth bonus" to simply realize that Cathedral gives way more than Mandir. Yeah, Mandir also protects you from spies, but its a really niche bonus.

    And still, good scaling is only a feint shadow of cathedral's true power.
    Cathedrals provide decent bonuses during golden ages. Each farm becomes a tiny luxury resource which provides extra gold during GA.
    This greatly increases amount of gold you get every golden age. And its also acts like additional niche bonus on top of the big cake.

    I think cathedrals needs some nerf. Probably a minor hit to base stats (-1 faith?) or scaling power (bonuses to food on farms only during GA and WLTKD?). Or both.

    Pacifism is just a rule breaker at the moment. It gives very strong spam missionary bonus AND ability to receive huge bonuses out of conversion.
    Usually you get a free prophet by turn 100-110 on immortal, so that missionary cost reduction transforms into early Reformation.

    But only Pacifism can provide +30 (30, Karl!) happiness bonus during medieval era. In my recent immortal games on standart speed I have consistently get these goodies since AI seem to ignore it.
    Happiness system is crucial for mid- endgame expansion and Pacifism just breaks the rule. You can roll Pacifism with any midieval era policy tree and get enourmous happiness boost.

    I think Pacifism needs some nerf. Probably a minor hit to a formula of extra happiness.
     

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