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[Tuning] Religion - Round 2!

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    I played a couple of games with Pagodas, and I am shocked. This building is heads and shoulders above every other one.
    The basic yields are already plain best - +2 to all is +10 total. Thats already more than every other building provides.
    And then there is the option the the building with the best yields even, as the only one, has to possibility to scale that with just a little bit of luck? I don't get it.
    The fact that it also has the most relevant great work slot is the icing on the cake that adds insult to injury for other buidings.
     
  2. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    Are you sure it's better than Cathedral? It can give upwards to 10 prod 10 gold too and doesn't require followers of other religions.
     
  3. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I agree with Strigvir here

    Unless you have too many cities on deserts (with not enough flood plains), or tundra or there's too many resources, in which case Cathedral is firmly below Pagoda, doubly so if you aren't brutal about removing other religions.
     
  4. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    It seems pretty self-defeating that Zealotry works for your neighbors. Maybe more so if you have Veneration.

    Or on the other side of things, your neighbor spreads their Religion with Zealotry and you in turn conquer them.
     
  5. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    Well, I guess that's another strike against zealotry if you're spreading your religion.

    I may have underestimated cathedrals due to the production, and that it'll probably outclass synagogues in most cases (unless you don't have more than 3 farms).

    However, I still stand by Veneration being the absolute snowballing machine along with tithes, because you can easily get insane amounts of faith from those 2 alone without need to spend any faith at all. Buying the buildings actually put you back a little in terms of faith production. Hence, I do rate snowballs with higher value when there is something you can abuse it with.

    I think I'm just abusing this too hard right now in every game and I employ the same tactic every damn game:
    Get a religion. Grab a founder (depending on which yield benefits my civ the most), then grab veneration. Spread my religion to my cities. Get a prophet. Enhance to tithes and whatever other follower belief. Go on a missionary spam, and eventually reform to one world one religion and this secures my religion as the supreme one, wiping the floor on whatever else there is (that's what one world one religion generally does). World congress starts, and I have 6-8 votes depending on how fast I teched to printing press and/or if I am host. Vote for world religion. Then I have a stranglehold on the world congress, have the only remaining religion, and I'm probably the leader of everything (I'm able to do this in immortal).
     
  6. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    Tithe and Veneration alone won't spread your religion though.
    This is my current religion situation:
    Spoiler :

    Take a wild guess which religions have spreader enhancements.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Remember that pagodas do not provide the religious pressure and conversion resistance bonuses of other buildings anymore, its the one building that does not.
     
  8. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    Well, there is a difference in our play modes. You're also on turn 450, so the religious war is ongoing. I play in standard 8 player (4 religions max, 5 if you count theodora), and that may have an impact. Also, I rely on one world one religion to have my missionaries as mini-prophets, basically eliminating other religious pressures whenever they spread my religion, and it usually works out far easier, especially since it also gives you votes for congress to help vote your religion in as the world religion. And since I get going much faster with veneration and tithes, I also get a head start to make sure I get to reform first (usually before the AI grabs St. basil, immortal difficulty).

    Edit: Note that veneration and tithes alone now aren't that strong. It's just the combination of the two allows a crazy faith generating snowball. And the two absolutely needs "one world one religion" to compliment it for this strategy. If you alter one of the pieces, it's less brutal.

    See attached for an example. This is turn 150 and I'm already on a religious rampage before they even get going.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I've though about either limiting the cap on veneration or returning it to the old 1 per 2 model. Thoughts?
     
  10. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    I think putting it back to the old 1 per 2 model would be best. It'll still be good at that point, but it won't snowball as quickly, but still can do so if you have enough growth to get near maximum value.
     
  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    At 1 per 2 it'll be back to its old self where nobody ever took it though.

    Maybe 1 per 1.5? Or 1 per 2, but also 1 free Missionary spawn (or sth like a +3 Faith in the holy city) so at least it speeds up your progression for real.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I say 1 to 1 with a lower cap. That way you get the nice push early but it doesn't scale up into insanity.
     
  13. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Having finally gotten a chance to grab Ritual before an AI in a game, I feel like Ritual and Scripture overlap too much, and Ritual is generally going to be better (from my experience, if anyone has seen differently feel free to share). I think the best solution would be to change one of them from a pure spreader belief to something that gives benefits elsewhere as well, maybe as a reward for spreading your religion. ie Scripture is now 25%/50% faster spread with Printing Press, but also provides an instant 200 Culture when a city converts for the first time.

    Late reply but having just used it in a game I take back what I said about it being weak, it took a pretty healthy number of missionaries each but I was able to convert all the non-founder civs in my game from their existing religions, which will be a nice extra couple votes in WC + diplo bonus. Tempted to try converting one of the civs that did found though I'm sure it won't go over well with them.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I really like the theme of zealotry and would like to see it buffed. Perhaps if it provided a small amount of faith to help purchase the units it could be more useful.
     
  15. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Faith upon unit kills or city capture would make sense if those weren't already on other beliefs.

    I like the idea of extra Strategic resources, but an extra 25% on stuff you already have doesn't seem terribly useful, if you have enough of something for the 25% to be anything significant you probably have more than enough (and if you're warmongering, you probably won't get a good price selling it), and if you don't have a resource you need then it does nothing for you. A flat 2-4 of all strategics you've discovered seems better. Though conversely, if you're going full-on domination, you'll probably control enough land that you'll likely already own all strategics so it's not much use in that case. Hm.

    Actually, in retrospect the extra resources will help with monopoly bonuses, so that's something.

    Faith buying Barracks/Armory/MAcademy could also be interesting but that's more of a thing with Reformation beliefs (though I'm not sure that deserves a Reformation belief, just saying for comparison's sake).
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  16. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Zealotry is good when you're fighting from behind and don't have a whole lot of land and strategic resources. I don't think it needs to be that good when you're already ahead. What about giving units purchased with faith the ability to move on the same turn they are summoned? Should help getting an impromptu crusade going faster and fits the "zealot" theme
     
  17. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Warlord

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    Tithes at 1 per 6 is less interesting now. I could see it a 1 per 5, but I would also like to see it as: Trade routes between cities of this religion gain +8 gold, +8 faith.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Here is an idea for Zealotry, what if it gave a sum of faith when you conquer a holy city? A fat chunk of faith when you conquer would be great could be used to throw down units, and if you just took a city it also means you should have some supply cap to spare and it fits the theme of zealotry very well.
     
  19. SyngeR6

    SyngeR6 Chieftain

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    Tithes is already top tier. +8 gold and +8 faith would make it stupidly overpowered compared to the others.
     
  20. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Stolen a bit from Dawnbreaker to save time. Not commenting on things I haven't tried for the most part. Also not commenting if I agree 100% and have nothing to add.

    FOUNDER BELIEFS

    Ceremonial Burial: A

    (Building) +5 Faith. +5 Faith from Holy Sites. Gain Faith when your own unit is killed.
    (General) Gain 25 Faith/50 Culture when expending a Great Person (Era Scale).

    Great for GP gameplay. Also great backup for warmongers.

    Council of Elders: B+

    (Building) +4 Faith, +5 Food. +5 Science from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain science when spreading religion (Era Scale).

    Maybe a tiny buff to the amount of science you get, but I've found it decent. When nothing else is applicable I tend to grab this.

    Hero Worship: A

    (Building) +5 Faith, +15% Military Production. +5 Production from Holy Sites.
    (General) Gain Faith and GA points when conquering a city (Era/City Population scale).

    I don't really care for the GA points, but it's well balanced so I'd keep it as is.

    Mandate of Heaven: C+

    (Building) +2 Faith/Culture/Food/Science/Gold/Production. +5 Faith for Holy Sites.
    (General) +15% to all yields of Holy City during a Golden Age.

    This is really nice for Aztecs, but also for tall golden age civs. Maybe add some GA points.

    Theocratic Rule: C

    (Building) +10 Faith. +5 culture for Holy Sites.
    (General) WLTKD increases Faith/Culture/Gold/Science by 15%.

    Yeah I think this needs a way to trigger WLTKD. I'd like to see it give 1 turn of WLTKD on citizen birth or something to help cycle through bad resources. (They want the 1 coral on the map... fudge you guys!)


    FOLLOWER BELIEFS

    Asceticism: C

    +1 Food per follower (max 15)

    Maybe increase cap to 20?

    Cathedrals: A

    Faith building: +3 faith, +3 gold, Farms +1 gold/+1 prod, reduce poverty, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great art slot

    This is situational but can be amazing.


    Cooperation: C

    +7 yields every citizen born. Scales with era.

    This needs to be buffed to +8 for correct speed scaling. (I play epic.)

    Diligence: A+

    +1 Production per 2 followers (max 20)

    Free production best production.

    Mandirs: B+

    Faith building: +3 faith, +2 food, +10% food, reduce poverty, spies cannot assassinate GP, 25% pressure/20% resistance, great music slot

    Stopping GP assassinations is amazingly useful. I'd like it if it also affected other advanced actions in some smaller way. Also I think the music slot can be really useful.

    Scholarship: C+

    +1 Science per 2 followers (max 10)

    Too small to feel impactful. With a lot of cities tech costs are bloated so high 10 science a city isn't much, and a tall civ caps only has a couple cities. I'd like to see it go up to 15 or 20 max.

    Stupas: C-

    Faith building: +3 faith, +2 GAP, +4 tourism (architecture), reduce illiteracy, 25% pressure/20% resistance

    Really good in a sacred sites strat, terrible otherwise.

    ENHANCER BELIEFS

    Clericalism:
    C
    +1 happy per two cities following religion, +15 to resting influence for CS following religion

    Good for some warmongers. CS bonus seems misplaced on top of being useless. If you want it to affect CS consider having it increase CS yeilds or something.

    Evangalism: B
    Get science when spread religion to foreign city. Missionary conversion strength +25%.

    If you didn't need to be the one to spread it, it would be better I think.

    Pacifism: F
    Missionaries/Inquisitors cost 30% less faith. Holy City gains +1 happy per 6 followers in non-enemy foreign cities.

    Only civs I have happiness problems with are warmongers, so this is useless to me there. Decent for peaceful order tourism civs? :p

    Resilience: F
    Prophets 25% stronger, 25% less faith. Rival Inquisitors and Prophets reduce religious pressure by 75% instead of 100%.

    This seems mostly there to annoy me trying to convert cities I just took.

    Zealotry: F
    Purchase land units with faith. +25% Strategic.

    Honestly I think Zealotry should just give +1 happiness in capital for every puppeted or occupied city. It's thematic (Which is why I don't suggest it in the conquered cities) and something that a warmonger actually wants. It also would still produce much less happiness than +1 happiness per 2 cities so I think it's fair.

    REFORMATION BELIEFS

    Global Commandments: (N/A)
    Gain +10 Science, Gold, Culture, Faith, and GA points per turn while host of the WC. Gain 150 of those same yields when you pass a resolution. Era Scale on both bonuses.

    How do they scale per era? When do they start scaling for example? If you get this belief in medieval do they increase in Renaissance, or do they only scale after the WC is founded? I think that information is needed before I try this out. (It's always scared me.)

    Sacred Sites: C
    Hotels and buildings purchased with faith give +3 tourism, Hermitage gives +10 culture/+10 tourism.

    It doesn't work with Spanish missions. (or whatever their UB is called.) That kinda broke my legs.

    Only the founder can purchase units with Zealotry...
     

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