Turkey in europe

[Italian Celtic]

Dark Blue = not in Europe.

But considered europeans for cultural and historical reasons

On the contrary of Turkey!!!

aka: Kneejerk xenophobia.

1) In western europe we have already big communities of muslim which create a lot of problems. Belevie me, if we don't other muslim in europe isn't because we don't like their skin's colour but because they create too many problems. As showed before christianity and islam in general can't live together because they have different morality, ethics, opinions and especially different view of worlds

2) I've already said before that instead of offend us you should find a decent reason to let Turkey join EU. If you haven't it then it's useless continue to spam in this thread!

So we could treat them as a member without actually giving them membership... what's the point?

We can give them co-operation, free market and mutual support but not free passage

Did I say that? Go ahead and form such a club if you want... you can have barbecues and stuff. I'm sure it'll be fun.

Don't worry! We can give you a ticket of our party

It's really not. There are good reasons Turkey should not be in at the moment... "They are a different religion and unusually east" is not one of them.

Good i respect this opinion

 

[Truronian]

But considered europeans for cultural and historical reasons

On the contrary of Turkey!!!

I'd consider Turkey European for cultural and historical reasons, plus Instanbul is one of Europe's biggest cities.

1) In western europe we have already big communities of muslim which create a lot of problems. Belevie me, if we don't other muslim in europe isn't because we don't like their skin's colour but because they create too many problems.

But we have even bigger muslim communities that cause no problems at all, only they tend not to make the news.

As showed before christianity and islam in general can't live together because they have different morality, ethics, opinions and especially different view of worlds

This is simply untrue... Pretty much every town in Britain has Christians and Muslims living together without incident.

2) I've already said before that instead of offend us you should find a decent reason to let Turkey join EU. If you haven't it then it's useless continue to spam in this thread!

1) The usual reason for admitting *country X*... it will stregthen the Eu and benefit all citizens of it.

We can give them co-operation, free market and mutual support but not free passage

One can be in the EU and still have border security (eg Britain).

Don't worry! We can give you a ticket of our party

I think I'm busy.

 

[Quildavyr]

I have a question;

If Turkey joins EU,the economic problems would bother mostly Germany,England and France,is that true?

 

[Mirc]

I have a question;

If Turkey joins EU,the economic problems would bother mostly Germany,England and France,is that true?

Yes and no - they would simply bother the biggest economies. But since those are the 3 biggest and strongest economies in Europe, yes.

 

[Truronian]

Though we would have more to gain in the long run... Which is why the EU has expanded so much already.

 

[Quildavyr]

@Mirc:I learned about the GDP.%60 from GDP expensed for Military

 

[warpus]

Even the hardcore atheists all over Europe live according to the Christian moral code

Europeans don't have sex before marriage?

celebrate Christmas

Secular Christmas, mostly.

I understand that Christianity forms the basis for a lot of our traditions. It is our heritage. But we're secular nations now - Christianity isn't a big part of our lives. It's the past. We should be looking to the future.

 

[Mirc]

Christianity isn't a big part of our lives. It's the past.

Actually, that depends on where you are in Europe. Europe is not France + Sweden + Czech Republic. Hundred of millions would disagree with you.

 

[Truronian]

Actually, that depends on where you are in Europe. Europe is not France + Sweden + Czech Republic. Hundred of millions would disagree with you.

Pretty much exactly 100 million (21% of 495 million). I'm suprised it's that high...

 

[Mirc]

Pretty much exactly 100 million (21% of 495 million). I'm suprised it's that high...

Did you even read that stuff? Let me quote for you:

52% believe in a god, 27% in some sort of spirit or life force and 18% had no form of belief.

And that's the EU, while I was talking about Europe. Belief is higher than average in Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

Or do you think that those 52% that believe in a god think Christianity is the past? I don't think even those that are in the 27% that believe in some sort of spirit or life force would say that Christianity is the past.

And religion is rapidly increasing in some parts of Europe.

A decrease in religiousness and church attendance in western Europe (especially France, Germany and Sweden) has been noted, but in contrary to it, there is an increase in Eastern Europe, especially in Greece and Romania (2% in 1 year).

 

[Italian Celtic]

I'd consider Turkey European for cultural and historical reasons, plus Instanbul is one of Europe's biggest cities.

Your map and the majority of europeans say the opposite

But we have even bigger muslim communities that cause no problems at all, only they tend not to make the news.

No problems? Half world speak about cohabitation problems and you say "no problems".

Sob, sometimes people are strange

This is simply untrue... Pretty much every town in Britain has Christians and Muslims living together without incident.

I've said before thatt islam in general isn't negative. Islamofascism yes.

1) The muslim of second generation, who studied in Europe, do the exactly things of other teenagers and blame on terorist aren't bad. I've a family of algerianas/french near my house. They have never created prolems because they have a modern mentality.

2) On the contrary the majority of arabian/turk population have a medieval close-minde mentality despite the government's attempts of modenization. When they come in Europe they tend to live in ghettos and continue the same miserable life of before. They give vent to their rage burning cars and raping girls. This is the kind of people we don't want here

It's so difficult to understand it, isn,'t?

1) The usual reason for admitting *country X*... it will stregthen the Eu and benefit all citizens of it.

To strengthen ourself we need only co-operation and free market. Freedom of movement is useless and harmful for both.

One can be in the EU and still have border security (eg Britain).

WTF?
With Turkey in Europe we will lost all security and peace forever

And don't ask me the why
It's so obvious!!!

Europeans don't have sex before marriage?

People do sex before marriage from dawn of time, independently from religion, race or nation

Secular Christmas, mostly.

I understand that Christianity forms the basis for a lot of our traditions. It is our heritage. But we're secular nations now - Christianity isn't a big part of our lives. It's the past. We should be looking to the future.

You have open a new thread

 

[mitsho]

Stepping in to defend him, out of the same wikipedia website:

Findings by Eurostat, the EU statistics agency which monitors the religious beliefs of EU citizens as part of its Eurobarometer opinion polls, show that the majority of EU citizens have some form of belief system but that only 21% see it as important.

Now it may be that most of the Europeans belong to a Church, but only 21 % (according to the eurobarometer) tend to think "Christian" when they make important decisions (for example who to vote for, I haven't heard a single candidat stating his religioun in a European election, at least not in my home country or more general my language room, but - I agree - these are way to split up evenly).

Now, Christianity isn't important any more in Europe. Deal with it. Humanism (or Post-Materialism) or other "ideologies" area much more strong "faith" in Europe. What is strong and something noone is going to deny that Christian Culture is as strong as always: We go to Church (at least on Christmas and Easter), we 'celebrate' Christmas and we listen when the pope is talking or Tony Blair is changing his religion.

Of course, this is not the absolute truth, just a direction and in a pluralistic world like ours there are many many more views, as there are many deeply religious people in Europe, perhaps you have seen the pictures of the Vatican this morning. But it is what this Eurobarometer is telling us.

m

 

[Mirc]

Stepping in to defend him, out of the same wikipedia website:



Now it may be that most of the Europeans belong to a Church, but only 21 % (according to the eurobarometer) tend to think "Christian" when they make important decisions

Stop it right here. Answer this question: do the 52% people that believe in a God think that Christianity is "the past"?

Sorry, your point is void. Wiki proves what I said.

(for example who to vote for, I haven't heard a single candidat stating his religioun in a European election, at least not in my home country or more general my language room, but - I agree - these are way to split up evenly).

I agree, politics and religion are a different thing. I would never vote for someone because he is a Christian, and I am one myself. In politics, it's just as important to me as voting for someone who is as tall as me or weighs as much as me. However, when it comes to integrating someone into the EU, it's not elective politics any more - it's about how much you share with those people. In this case, those thing actually start to matter.

 

[Italian Celtic]

But we're secular nations now - Christianity isn't a big part of our lives. It's the past. We should be looking to the future.

LOOLZ

So acording with this map Czech republic and Estonia are the future



percentage of believer in God

 

[Mirc]

^ And the map contradicts Wiki itself, since the Czech Republic, though one of the most atheist countries in Europe, is shown with 20%, when it has slightly over 30%. And Bulgaria isn't colored right either - again, a wiki map that contradicts wiki itself!

 

[Italian Celtic]

^ And the map contradicts Wiki itself, since the Czech Republic, though one of the most atheist countries in Europe, is shown with 20%, when it has slightly over 30%. And Bulgaria isn't colored right either - again, a wiki map that contradicts wiki itself!

I've never trusted on wikipedia given that all can modify it

I've a question

why is Turkey considered already in EU?

 

[warpus]

Stop it right here. Answer this question: do the 52% people that believe in a God think that Christianity is "the past"?

A belief in God does not equate to the belief that Christianity is an important part of your life.

 

[Truronian]

Your map and the majority of europeans say the opposite

Which goes back to my theory that the majority of Europeans don't have a clue...

No problems? Half world speak about cohabitation problems and you say "no problems".

Where did you pull "half the world" from?

2) On the contrary the majority of arabian/turk population have a medieval close-minde mentality despite the government's attempts of modenization. When they come in Europe they tend to live in ghettos and continue the same miserable life of before. They give vent to their rage burning cars and raping girls. This is the kind of people we don't want here

That is some quality racism there... You do realise that Turkey is one of the most secular countries in Europe? Do you have any proof of the Turkish diaspora's evil ways?

To strengthen ourself we need only co-operation and free market. Freedom of movement is useless and harmful for both.

EU membership =/= Freedom of movement.

WTF?
With Turkey in Europe we will lost all security and peace forever

You didn't tell me you're clairvoyant!

Seriously though, that's nonsense.

And that's the EU, while I was talking about Europe. Belief is higher than average in Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

But this is a thread about the EU

Or do you think that those 52% that believe in a god think Christianity is the past? I don't think even those that are in the 27% that believe in some sort of spirit or life force would say that Christianity is the past.

And religion is rapidly increasing in some parts of Europe.

You'll note that only 21% says it's important, which by my calculations means 79% feels it's not a big part of their lives. warpus's point stands.

Stop it right here. Answer this question: do the 52% people that believe in a God think that Christianity is "the past"?

Well, not all of them, but I'd say about 58% do, given that they don't consider it important.

 

[Mirc]

Well, not all of them, but I'd say about 58% do, given that they don't consider it important.

That's beyond me. So you think you'll find any Christian saying that Christianity is "the past"? Even from those that aren't among those that consider it important?

 

[mitsho]

Stop it right here. Answer this question: do the 52% people that believe in a God think that Christianity is "the past"?

Sorry, your point is void. Wiki proves what I said.

Is it really? I belong to the Church and pay my church taxes, as it is a) a traditional thing (and I actually don't pay taxes as I am still a student) and b) perhaps I want to marry or be buried in a church thing and c) it would simply be too costly to have these arguments over such a pointless thing in my family in my opinion.

So, I - and I take myself here as an example - am a Catholic or Christian, but I am not at the same time.

Now where has Truronian said anything about the past? This debate has nothing to do with the Cultural Heritage of Europe, which is Christian. Again, Politics was just an example. We can take Art if you like. How many paintings are there that are admired by many many people. I could enumerate lots that have Christian meanings. But that doesn't mean that we adhere to these values. Social or Humanistic values are much more prominent: social state over private welfare, the opening of marriage, etc. ... are mostly and widely supported, although they contradict Christian teachings.

Got what I am trying to say?

I agree, politics and religion are a different thing. I would never vote for someone because he is a Christian, and I am one myself. In politics, it's just as important to me as voting for someone who is as tall as me or weighs as much as me. However, when it comes to integrating someone into the EU, it's not elective politics any more - it's about how much you share with those people. In this case, those thing actually start to matter.

Then to be honest, Romania shouldn't be in the EU. Just ask an Italian what they think of the Roma. And I have seen the situation (actually in Bulgaria to be honest) and I have heard the opinions that exist there on the Roma. Not exactly something shared. And can you numerate the Orthodox countries in the EU (well, Greece, go further?). As far as I am concerned, a different religion...

Now look, I don't want to insult Romania, imho it was the right decision to let it join. But i really don't think I share that much with a Romanian, the Turk from across the street might be nearer to me, at least I love Kebab!

But I agree, it is about how much we share with those people, but not culturally (a term that simply is way too blurry...), but economically and politically (and the second point is where I see the problems, namely the Middle East which would be bordering the EU).

mick