Turkey in europe

[Italian Celtic]

Most people forget that France was allied with the Ottoman Empire for very long periods of time. (Hell, they even planned to build the Suez canal together)

France has been always the worst enemy of Europe. For them the one European Union possible is French European Union and they still believe they are the best nation of Europe

Apart for jokes, Turkey has been always enemy of Europe and allied of France, so we need to kick out Turkey and to stop France, if we want a strong EU

NB Fortunately we have England who compensate for French chauvinism

 

[Verbose]

I think that historical problem is that againist Turks we were fighting. First European unity was thanks their invasion. There is also one another problem. Turkish viewpoint of their history. Same should be told for example about Serbia or Croatia.

Yup. Old history keeps cropping up. Sweden is the biggest supporter of Turkish EU membership. Why? Well, a couple of reasons, but one is historical: The Swedish experience is not fighting the Ottomans, but fighting alongside the Ottomans. Best historical ally Sweden ever had, after France.

And the opposite is Austria, which will be damned if it's going to accept Turkey moving up the qeue to EU membership ahead of Croatia, also for historical reasons.

 

[Winner]

Yup. Old history keeps cropping up. Sweden is the biggest supporter of Turkish EU membership. Why? Well, a couple of reasons, but one is historical: The Swedish experience is not fighting the Ottomans, but fighting alongside the Ottomans. Best historical ally Sweden ever had, after France.

And the opposite is Austria, which will be damned if it's going to accept Turkey moving up the qeue to EU membership ahead of Croatia, also for historical reasons.

Traitors of Europe

While the Central Europeans were fighting the islamic menace threatening to destroy our civilization, the nations behind backstabbed us for sake of their narrow-sighted interests. It's nothing to be proud of, really

 

[Winner]

If the EU is supposed to be an organisation of "Universal principles" why would you even bother calling it EU then. Why not the World Union or for that matter "The Evil Empire"

The problem lies in the fact that the EU at the moment tries to do two things at the same time which cannot co-exist. They want to work towards a politicial union, where the people feel European based on a similair European culture.

At the same time they do not want to define that culture (if something like that would even be possible) and want to extent the union to countries with cultures more and more alien to the Western European culture it stated out with.

The EU has to chose, either you deepen the Union via political integration or you broaden it by taking Turkey in. You cant do those two things at the same time. I think taking Turkey in would kill the EU political integration.

I tend to agree. Territorial expansion against the will of vast majority of Europeans is the surest way how to bury the entire project.

To clarify it, every EU expansion has been opposed by some. British accession was very unpopular in France and Eastern enlargement was opposed by many people in Western Europe. But in these cases, the opposition was not very strong and widespread.

In case of Turkey, the opposition is very strong and EU-wide, even people in the new member states, who usually support further enlargement, are against Turkey.

Clearly, majority of people don't think that Turkey belongs to the EU. I am certainly not the "people are always right" type of guy, like others on this forum, but even I think that this can't be ignored, for the sake of the EU project.

Especially those who oppose further integration and argue that it is not supported by the people, but support Turkey's membership in the EU, should realize how terribly hypocritical they are.

 

[Verbose]

Traitors of Europe

Yeah... The Protestants and the French. Baaad news.

While the Central Europeans were fighting the islamic menace threatening to destroy our civilization, the nations behind backstabbed us for sake of their narrow-sighted interests. It's nothing to be proud of, really

Hey! You forgot that the list of Good Guys here includes the Russians!

And it all kind of highlights why it's so bloody difficult to find that much common historical ground between European nations.

Unless we include "Killing each other at least since 817", or so, of course.

 

[Winner]

Yeah... The Protestants and the French. Baaad news.

Hey! You forgot that the list of Good Guys here includes the Russians!

And it all kind of highlights why it's so bloody difficult to find that much common historical ground between European nations.

Unless we include "Killing each other at least since 817", or so, of course.

Not really, almost every major civilization has gone through this, it's inevitable, especially under primitive pre-modern circumstances. Chinese civil wars have killed more people than the two Western civil wars (aka WW1&2), Indians have been fighting each other for centuries (and their lack of unity eventually almost destroyed them), Arabs wasted their conquests in series of internal struggles which culminated with their inability to stand up against the Christians, Mongols and Turks.

Fortunately the majority of Europeans were sane enough to team up against their common enemies - Huns, Arabs, Turks and various other invaders. Logically, after the immediate threat diminished, the individual states took advantage of the situation to spread their influence.

Anyway, now it's time for consolidation of cultural Europe, this should be our imperative if we want to survive as a civilization.

 

[Verbose]

Not really, almost every major civilization has gone through this, it's inevitable, especially under primitive pre-modern circumstances. Chinese civil wars have killed more people than the two Western civil wars (aka WW1&2), Indians have been fighting each other for centuries (and their lack of unity eventually almost destroyed them), Arabs wasted their conquests in series of internal struggles which culminated with their inability to stand up against the Christians, Mongols and Turks.

Fortunately the majority of Europeans were sane enough to team up against their common enemies - Huns, Arabs, Turks and various other invaders. Logically, after the immediate threat diminished, the individual states took advantage of the situation to spread their influence.

Anyway, now it's time for consolidation of cultural Europe, this should be our imperative if we want to survive as a civilization.

Nonsense! It was historically always better to deal with and honest infidel than with a Christian heretic. The infidels were simply deluded, there was hope for them; the heretics pure evil, no salvation possible as they already knew the Truth, and still rejected it. That was a basic premise of the European wars of religion.

It only ended with the 1648 peace of Westphalia, which laid the groundwork for the principles of soverignity that foreign politics has been based on since then, including the UN.

And Europeans only ended the preference of killing each other over and above everyone else in the arftermath of WWII. This is one of the major points of the EU. It should be a principle that travels well outside Europe too.

As to the beating up of "common enemies", from early modern history it has more a case of beating the other Europeans to it.
Hell's bells, the Spanish, the Portugese, the Dutch, the British, French, the Johnny-come-lately Italians, and early on even the Swedes and the Danes in a small way, and in fact the Russians over in their corner eventully running into the British, fought entire wars with each other for the prerogative of being the one allowed to bestow a beating of various brown-skinned peoples all over the world.

 

[Italian Celtic]

Fortunately the majority of Europeans were sane enough to team up against their common enemies - Huns, Arabs, Turks and various other invaders. Logically, after the immediate threat diminished, the individual states took advantage of the situation to spread their influence.

Do you consider americans like "invader", mate?

 

[Quildavyr]

Most people forget that France was allied with the Ottoman Empire for very long periods of time. (Hell, they even planned to build the Suez canal together)

I think we are allied almost all countries in Europa.Same side at WWI:Germany,Austria.
Same side with England and France against Russia.
We terrored V.Carlos' dreams only for France.
And Sarkozy hates us.

 

[Quildavyr]

Fortunately the majority of Europeans were sane enough to team up against their common enemies - Huns, Arabs, Turks and various other invaders. Logically, after the immediate threat diminished, the individual states took advantage of the situation to spread their influence.

I still remember fourth crusade.Europa has pretty well supported Byzantium against Turks.

Btw Huns are Turks too.

 

[Pannonius]

I just want to say one thing. My ancestors were those guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier
And now the Balkan countries have to wait for years to get into EU, but Turkey should be addmited instantly. We saved Europe from the onslaught of islam, and this is what we get?
It is interesting how some people in Europe think that the Ottoman empire was SOOOOOO great, and was a victim of evil Europeans and their imperialism.

 

[Winner]

Nonsense! It was historically always better to deal with and honest infidel than with a Christian heretic. The infidels were simply deluded, there was hope for them; the heretics pure evil, no salvation possible as they already knew the Truth, and still rejected it. That was a basic premise of the European wars of religion.

It only ended with the 1648 peace of Westphalia, which laid the groundwork for the principles of soverignity that foreign politics has been based on since then, including the UN.

It should be noted that the Ottoman empire was not a part of this new order. European countries dealt with foreign empires, but they've never thought of them as equals.

And Europeans only ended the preference of killing each other over and above everyone else in the arftermath of WWII. This is one of the major points of the EU. It should be a principle that travels well outside Europe too.

This experience is hardly transferable. WW2 is another experience which, and that's probably the most ironic thing in the world, brings Europeans together. Other continents and other civilizations don't understand it and that's why they've been unable to successfully "copy" the European integration process.

Civilizations often wage terrible civil wars, but they quickly recover from them. On the other hand, conflict between two civilizations tend to be less intensive, but perpetual.

 

[Winner]

I still remember fourth crusade.Europa has pretty well supported Byzantium against Turks.

Is that a sarcasm? Crusaders have caused greater damage to the Byzantine Empire than the Turks themselves.

Btw Huns are Turks too.

Hardly. Huns came from Central Asian region too, but I don't think they were a Turkic nation.

 

[Quildavyr]

I just want to say one thing. My ancestors were those guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier
And now the Balkan countries have to wait for years to get into EU, but Turkey should be addmited instantly. We saved Europe from the onslaught of islam, and this is what we get?
It is interesting how some people in Europe think that the Ottoman empire was SOOOOOO great, and was a victim of evil Europeans and their imperialism.

You should notice something.Maybe we destroyed the Byzantine empire and invaded Greece,while Balkan countries slaughtering them.Vlad sticked Bulgarians and Mehmed II punished him.People reaped just,what they sow.Ottomans did not rule cruel.Nonmuslim paid their taxes and lived a normal,safe life.
And you should remember this

And Turkey waits since 30 years for a membership.

 

[Quildavyr]

Is that a sarcasm? Crusaders have caused greater damage to the Byzantine Empire than the Turks themselves.

Just a notification about the early unions of Europa.


Hardly. Huns came from Central Asian region too, but I don't think they were a Turkic nation.

They are.Trust me.

 

[Italian Celtic]

They are.Trust me.

Why don't you ask to a Hungarians if they consider themself turks's brothers?

 

[Mirc]

Huns =/= Hungarians. Huns were not homogenous, they were not only one kind of people. They were Finnic, Mongolic, Turkic and Uralic people. The ruling class had a Turkic system, but they were rather related to the Mongols than to the Turks today (for example, all the chronicles mention them having "oblique eyes").

Hungarians are something totally different to them. They are hardly related to the Huns or Magyars at all, which is obvious from everything, including their appearance (blond-haired blue-eyed people, not really your typical central Asian). Their language is not European, but that's all that's not European in them.

 

[Mirc]

You should notice something.Maybe we destroyed the Byzantine empire and invaded Greece,while Balkan countries slaughtering them.Vlad sticked Bulgarians and Mehmed II punished him.People reaped just,what they sow.Ottomans did not rule cruel.Nonmuslim paid their taxes and lived a normal,safe life.
And you should remember this

And Turkey waits since 30 years for a membership.

Vlad sticked Bulgarians? What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that Vlad Tepes impaled Bulgarians? Because that's wrong. And he learned impaling... guess where!! In the Ottoman Empire! Where the method was wide-spread.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Vlad sticked Bulgarians? What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that Vlad Tepes impaled Bulgarians? Because that's wrong. And he learned impaling... guess where!! In the Ottoman Empire! Where the method was wide-spread.

He also used it to frighten young Mehmed II for life.... Correct me if i'm wrong, but he put all the caputured Ottoman Soldiers on impalers.

 

[Mirc]

He also used it to frighten young Mehmed II for life.... Correct me if i'm wrong, but he put all the caputured Ottoman Soldiers on impalers.

Yes, there were battles in which prisoners were killed, exactly for that purpose (to scare your opponent). We can never be sure if it is legend or fact that he impaled them all (it's not a good method of killing people, it's long, expensive and requires much space), but that's what the German (propagandist) pamphlets say. In any case, even if it is 100% true, it happened so many times in so many battles that it was far from something unheard of.