Turkey in the EU? Let the people decide! (Only Europeans)
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Marla_Singer
United in diversity
I'm impressed by the number of people who talks about this topic as if it was about joining NAFTA or MERCOSUR...
The more it goes, the more I feel I've been cheated by people around me who made me dream of something no one had never really believed in. I feel a bit like a kid who believed in Santa Claus and who finally realizes he doesn't exist.
The more it goes, the more I feel I've been cheated by people around me who made me dream of something no one had never really believed in. I feel a bit like a kid who believed in Santa Claus and who finally realizes he doesn't exist.
Pros:
- With Turkey in EU, EU could greatly influence the Middle East, as well as having greater power overall. This could be useful in a world, that is becoming increasingly multipolar.
- Turkey, a Muslim country, would be to reach a hand out towards the Islamic world. It would prove the hatemongers wrong, and establish cross-religion relationships.
Cons:
- Turkey is far from European standards in most everything. Though considerable progress is being made, it still lacks basic human rights, it's still dirt poor, it's still nationalistic, the army can still not be completely trusted.
- Turkey is friggen big. At present, they would have the second largest population, but in 20 years they would outnumber even the Germans. That means a lot of influence going their way, to a population that voted for an Islamic government. As long as their politics are still not secular, Im not sure I would like them to dominate.
- Immigration. Though only 15% of the Turks in Istanbul considder moving to Europe once Turkey is in, that number is 50% in Eastern Turkey. At present, the Turks already living here, are unfortunately grossly overrepresentated in crime and unemployment statistics. When we cant even integrate the ones we have now, why open the borders completely.
Add to this that EU would then be bordering Iraq, Syria and Iran.
- Turkey still dosn't recognise Cyprus. A full EU member.
- Turkey still dosn't recognise the Armenian genocide.
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Overall, Im against their membership as things are now. Were they to reach European standards and recognise the two things, I would support a limited membership, but open borders are not an option.
- With Turkey in EU, EU could greatly influence the Middle East, as well as having greater power overall. This could be useful in a world, that is becoming increasingly multipolar.
- Turkey, a Muslim country, would be to reach a hand out towards the Islamic world. It would prove the hatemongers wrong, and establish cross-religion relationships.
Cons:
- Turkey is far from European standards in most everything. Though considerable progress is being made, it still lacks basic human rights, it's still dirt poor, it's still nationalistic, the army can still not be completely trusted.
- Turkey is friggen big. At present, they would have the second largest population, but in 20 years they would outnumber even the Germans. That means a lot of influence going their way, to a population that voted for an Islamic government. As long as their politics are still not secular, Im not sure I would like them to dominate.
- Immigration. Though only 15% of the Turks in Istanbul considder moving to Europe once Turkey is in, that number is 50% in Eastern Turkey. At present, the Turks already living here, are unfortunately grossly overrepresentated in crime and unemployment statistics. When we cant even integrate the ones we have now, why open the borders completely.
Add to this that EU would then be bordering Iraq, Syria and Iran.
- Turkey still dosn't recognise Cyprus. A full EU member.
- Turkey still dosn't recognise the Armenian genocide.
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Overall, Im against their membership as things are now. Were they to reach European standards and recognise the two things, I would support a limited membership, but open borders are not an option.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
You've forgotten another another obvious "con" Storealex : with Turkey in, there will never be any political integration in the EU. The EU would remain a simple economical union, and this for at least one century.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Not right now.
Mr. Blonde
Dr. techn.
I say, if both parties (EU and Turkey) are prepared they should join. I don´t see geographical or cultural reasons (united in diversity - we also have huge differences inside the union if you compare let´s say greece and the baltic countries) being relevant.
Btw, what do the people here think about Russia joining sometime?
Btw, what do the people here think about Russia joining sometime?
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
I would like to see Turkey in the E.U. one day, but as Storelax mentions not without them first regonising the Armenian Genocide and Cyprus.
Plus Marla has a good point about the political integration, I want to see that happen in the E.U and if Turkey joins that would certainally slow the processs down vastly.
Plus Marla has a good point about the political integration, I want to see that happen in the E.U and if Turkey joins that would certainally slow the processs down vastly.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
1. Religion : The fact that Islam is the main religion in Turkey is in fact an advantage for me and certainly not something detrimental.storealex said:
2. Foreign Policy : What is true in here about Turkey is also true about Russia. Those countries are very large, very populated, with a clear influence on their neighbours and aren't in the same geo-strategical sphere as most other EU countries. When we think about those countries, we are seeing them on a Europe map and realize they are there. But let's take a map of Asia and we'll notice they are also there... and not just a bit. If you take a map of the Middle East, you would realize Turkey is clearly one of the most influent countries in the region.
The location does matter. It has a crucial influence on the international politics of each country. And I doubt the geo-strategical interests of Turkey or Russia could become only one with those of Portugal or Sweden. Clearly, as much Russia than Turkey could become members of the EU only in case the EU gets rid of its political ambitions and decides to become something purely economical.
3. Balance of power in the EU : All the big guys of the EU (Britain, Spain, Germany, Poland, France, Italy) will never accept to be under the influence of Turkey, and the political unification process will automatically be stopped. This will be as much true if it would be Russia, Ukraine or Turkey joining. Hence I'm against the joining of those 3 countries in the EU.
4. EU as a superpower ? Any chances of the EU becoming a superpower are slowly being destroyed by the politician who demand constant expansion of the EU. In order to create a superpower that can act as one country with one leadership you'll need you civilians to feel like they share a common bond with each other. The more there are Nationalist countries in the EU, such as Turkey or Russia, the less people will trust the European Union. How to create such a bond where values such as those related to sexuality are so different between Turkey and the Netherlands ? The problem of that common bond is not simply about people being close-minded or anything like that. At the opposite, it is actually crucial if you want people to truly feel represented by the European Union.
5. My solution : As it's impossible to create a political union with those countries, their membership will automatically create the EU as a purely economical union. As I'm certainly not against an economical union with Russia, Ukraine and Turkey, but I don't want to destroy the political union process, I propose to create two levels of integration :
- An economical union with UK, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Sweden, Norway, Poland, and Maghreeb countries.
- Inside that economical union, a more ambitious political union.
6. Conclusion : I'm sorry to say this to you but it's absolutely impossible to dream of a political union which would incorporate nationalist nations such as Russia or Turkey. In case those countries join the EU, this would automatically means the EU will remain purely economical.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
No. Storealex remained on a superficial approach of the issue. Or more exactly, he's talking about it as if the EU was about a free trade zone. [EDIT]This is a very exagerated answer and I'm sorry about it, I apologize as much to Storealex than to CarlosMM about it. The rest of my post below is simply a general statement which isn't directly an answer to them.[/EDIT]carlosMM said:
I don't believe in the "not now but tomorrow why not" idea. I consider it as dishonnest. There are fundamental reasons why the integration of Turkey will modify the whole structure of the EU. If we say today once and for all that there will never be any common foreign policy in the EU, that there won't be any common defense in the EU, that the EU will never work democratically, then ok, we can accept Turkey in.
However, as long as Brussels will continue to talk about political integration, it's simply impossible to accept Turkey.
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
Very good post MarlaMarla_Singer said:
Marla_Singer said:
hu?
so you deny me my right to an opinion just because you think storelax is superficial in explaining?
Believe me, I *have* thought about this.
Turkey is, at least on paper, a secular state.
This may come true in the hearts and minds of the people, too. And if that condition is fullfilled, then they can happily join the Eu as a POLITICAL union.
That is not correct Marla. I overlooked an important subject, yes (And thank you for explaning that so well) but nowhere did I talk about it, as if it were merely a free trade zone. In fact, I did the opposite. Please read my post again.Marla_Singer said:
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
@CarlosMM and Storealex :
Sorry about the post you've quoted. You're indeed fully right. I've been unfairly harsh and I excuse myself about it.
Sorry about the post you've quoted. You're indeed fully right. I've been unfairly harsh and I excuse myself about it.
Mr. Blonde
Dr. techn.
@Marla
I think the geopolitical interest differences will prevent Russia form joining, but I don´t think this is true for Turkey.
You are probably right that the current big countries fear another political rival with weight in the Union, but if the EU structures are democratised and the parlament is the legislative body the power will shift from the countries to parties, then this won´t be a problem.
I don´t see a point of categorically excluding the possibility of Turkey joining, reforms from both sides will be needed but with these prequesites a political union with Turkey is possible and advantageous for all sides.
I think the geopolitical interest differences will prevent Russia form joining, but I don´t think this is true for Turkey.
You are probably right that the current big countries fear another political rival with weight in the Union, but if the EU structures are democratised and the parlament is the legislative body the power will shift from the countries to parties, then this won´t be a problem.
I don´t see a point of categorically excluding the possibility of Turkey joining, reforms from both sides will be needed but with these prequesites a political union with Turkey is possible and advantageous for all sides.
