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Turkey in the EU

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pannonius, Aug 19, 2007.

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Should Turkey be admitted into the EU?

  1. Yes, Turkey should be admitted into EU wright away

    17 vote(s)
    13.9%
  2. Yes, it should be admitted after some reforms

    32 vote(s)
    26.2%
  3. Yes, but only after serious reforms and some probation time

    36 vote(s)
    29.5%
  4. No, Turkey should not be a member state of the EU

    37 vote(s)
    30.3%
  1. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    GDP ? Neither Romania or Bulgaria currently fail this : Respect other European Nations at least on the level to recognize them as entities , do not actively keep troops on European ground or pursue offensive activities against them.
     
  2. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

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    I was responding to someone saying they would be the sick man economically.
     
  3. Urederra

    Urederra Mostly harmless

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    no, thanks, I prefer chicken.

    (Man, that was an easy joke :D)
     
  4. Rossiya

    Rossiya Fridge Magnet Porn

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    Never occurred to me, that joke. :(
     
  5. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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  6. The Yankee

    The Yankee The New Yawker Retired Moderator

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    Now you made me all Greece-y......[/terrible joke]

    Europe! :crazyeye:

    (now you try to figure that out)
     
  7. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    The answer to the question is partly depending on what the EU is and where it's gonna go. I'm not too much for a more political or cultural union anyway, but would rather see more changes towards a strong, open, common market. That really is where the EU has gained a real lot and also where is still more to gain. I defenitely DO think Turkey should be part of the European market.

    Seriously, I find the idea that the EU is (or should be) one 'cultural' union, quite disturbing. If there is one thing the EU-commission and parliament should say nothing about, and spend no euros on, it's culture. When it comes to a political union, I have strong doubts.
     
  8. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    That's really funny. As it appears, Europeans are actually becoming less fond of Turkish membership, while Turks themselves are less and less pro-EU. Real world doesn't work like your dreams :p

    No, it is well estabilished in the hearts and minds of Europeans (silly as it sounds). Try to make a definition of the American identity - you'll find that it is equally hard to define.

    Like Marla said, Europeans are people who share the same destiny. Turkey has its own.

    But let's get back to Huntington, the everlasting source of inspiration :)

    Western civilization (= European in this thread) has an unique mix of basic characteristics. These characteristics are not exclusively Western, some of them are shared by other civilizations, but neither of them share all of them. This mix is what forms the Western identity:

    Classical heritage (Greek philoshophy, rationalism, Roman law, Latin etc.)
    -> West has absorbed more of it than anyone else. Greece is generally considered to be a craddle of the Western civilization

    Western Christianity (Catholicism+Protestantism)
    -> Christianity has always been the prime source of the European unity. Christians felt they're unique, different from Muslims, Pagans etc. Although the unity of Western Christianity has been broken, the shared experience of Reformation is a part of the Western identity,

    Separation of Church and the State
    -> In Western society, Church has always been separated from the State, be it the Roman Empire, where Church existed in parallel with the Roman state, or later Christian kingdoms of Europe. In other civilizations (except the Hindu), this dualism has never spontaneously appeared.

    European languages
    -> Unlike other civilizations, West has never been dominated by single language (like Arabic in the Islamic World). Latin was widely used in the Middle Ages. Today, three main groups exist: Germanic, Romance and Slavic. In Europe, there are exceptions (Hungary, Finland), but generally, most of Europe speaks a language that belongs to one of these groups.

    Rule of Law
    -> Belief, that human power should be or is limited by some higher power (God, Nature, Reason etc.). Europe is fond of Law, even kings had to adhere to them. This is in sharp contrast with the Oriental Despotism of China, Japan, the Ottoman empire or theocracies of Arabia.

    Pluralism
    -> Western society has never been uniform. Various Orders, Guilds and other groups not based on the proximity of blood appeared. Three main groups, Aristocracy, Peasantry/Working class and Bourgeoisie struggled for power. This pluralism severely limited the power of the King. Although Absolutism has existed in some Western countries, it never lasted and it was opposed. On the contrary, Absolutism was standard form of government outside the West, in Russia, China or the Ottoman Empire.

    Representation
    -> Closely related with pluralism. Only the West has almost 1000 years long tradition of representative institutions, which have been estabilished to limit the power of the State. Representation evolved even at the local level.

    Individualism
    -> Westerners are very individualistic beings, which is in contrast with the Eastern collectivism.


    This is what Huntington wrote about it (you have to suffer my version). I'd add that other things are also important - the many times mentioned unique common historic experience (including Renaissance, Reformation, Romantism, Enlightement and other movements that shaped the West, and wars, of course), ethnic relation, inter-European interactions which have always been much more intensive than relations with the world outside Europe/West, shared interests etc.


    Now tell me what does Turkey share with Europe? Everything, I mean everything that is now supposed to make it Western and thus European was forcibly imposed in the period after WW1 by Mustafa Kemal and his followers.

    Wiki:
    "Huntington refers to countries that are seeking to affiliate with another civilization as "torn countries." Turkey, whose political leadership has systematically tried to Westernize the country since the 1920s, is his chief example. Turkey's history, culture, and traditions are derived from Islamic civilization, but Turkey's Western-oriented elite imposed western institutions and dress, embraced the Latin alphabet, joined NATO, and is seeking to join the European Union."

    Turkey is not Europen, it has never been and it will never be. After this Kemalist period, Turkey will find its own way and it will not lead to Europe.
     
  9. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    EU is a cultural union, among other things. But the EU is not trying to melt national cultures into one grey "European superculture". European culture, this term's meaning, is a sum of the national cultures which are naturally related and EU is actually spending Euros to preserve and promote them.

    I fail to see what's wrong with that.

    Anyway, I also thing EU should trade with Turkey, but that can be done without letting it in as a member. Such a move would completely destroy the fragile "culture of compromises", that allows us to move forward. Just look at Poland and its stubborness. Now multiply that by 10 and add different interests and mindset. You get Turkey in the EU.
     
  10. Pannonius

    Pannonius Reconquistador

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    I find this "western christianity" point invalid. What about orthodox countries. Currently you have Greece, Cyprus, Romania and Bulgaria in the EU. Their culture is still european (the cradle of Europe is in this group), and they could be offended (wrightfully) by this remark. Anyway, european identity shouldn't be based on religion (or mere denomination), we're not Saudi Arabia. In fact, freedom of religion, laicism and specially freedom to not believe are also big parts of european identity. This is why we oppose radical islamists who do not share these values and deni these freedoms.
    Most of other points do make sense to me, though not 100%.
     
  11. JZ_UK

    JZ_UK

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    I'm open to EU expansion, however, I'm concerned that Turkey needs some political and legal reforms first... in fact I'm more concerned that Poland is a member state I'd be more open to a straight swap :)

    The EU's Christian heritage is not so much irrelevant as it is a neat label (if inaccurate, given the Catholic schisms, that nominally Northern Europe is half a dozen flavours of protestant and the South and France are Catholic) for a cultural grouping of Western Europe, course with the admission of the Baltic states and Poland down to Bulgaria the 'Christian' heritage looks a little more shakey what with the thousand year old split, rather than the 600/500 year ones... Really, the EU's values are secular, the Christian heritage is however what allowed those secular values to blossom to what they are now, because the Christian faiths were unable to retard social progress. (that might be framed quite harshly...) So it does make some sense to have this label, though, it is counter-productive and easily used as a bludgeon against it...

    The real problem is not admission of some new cultural or religious values... Turkey is quite a cosmopolitan place... though if they keep taking rejections the mood might sour... the problem is the population increase and the economic impact, Turkey would introduce a new voting dynamic that would massively upset the largely still functioning 'Franco-German engine' of the EU... and its hard enough to get agreements as it is with the current set up... both the EU and Turkey need reforms before a state the population numbers like Germany and carrying the economic clout of a country like Belgium or The Netherlands is admitted...
     
  12. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    American - A citizen of the United States of America.

    Winner, the points you bring up are interesting, but you can find European exceptions for almost every single one. And what about eastern christianity?
     
  13. Rossiya

    Rossiya Fridge Magnet Porn

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    You fell into the trap for idiots. American - A citizen of a country in the American continent.
     
  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    If Winner isn't talking about United Statesians, then his question doesn't really make sense.
     
  15. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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    I actually brought it up, earlier, when I said that the quality of being European is as hard to define as the quality of being American.
     
  16. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    It's not much of an issue in the case of the U.S. - you guys admit that you're a melting pot of various cultures and ethnic groups. The only thing tying you together are your American citizenships.
     
  17. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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    But "American" applies to more than just the US. The rest of the Western Hemisphere sometimes uses it to describe themselves.
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    If somebody says American, I assume you're talking about a citizen of the U.S. ;)

    So what'sthe problem then? An American is someone who lives in one of the two Americas. There is no such thing as a collective American cultural identity, so the definition becomes strictly geographic.
     
  19. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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    Well, why make that assumption?

    Why is there a distinct European cultural identity and not an American one? Most of America has a far greater shared history than Europe.
     
  20. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Because everyone else I in the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe makes the same assumption, making communication easier :)

    There isn't. Winner, on the other hand, claims that there is a very clear and easily-defined one.
     

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