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Turkish PM: Zionism is a crime against humanity

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    BBC reports:


    Besides further illustrating what a clown Erdogan is, there is a question to be asked here:

    - can an ideology, or a political/philosophical position (in this case, that Jews should have a homeland in the Near East; or that Islam is a dangerous religious belief) be considered a "crime against humanity"? Have you noticed how these strong terms are being misused by populists? Is there anything that can be done to inoculate the public against devaluation of crucial terminology? Do we want to live in a world where massacring tens of thousands of civilians is classified as the same crime as thinking that Israel should exist?​

    Discuss.
     
  2. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    No. I'd say the idea that Jewish people should have a homeland isn't a crime against humanity. But treating Palestinians unfairly is. If the implementation of Zionism necessarily implies maltreating other people then it's a crime against humanity.

    And no. There's nothing anyone can do about the devaluation of crucial terminology. Language moves on. All you can hope to do is keep reinventing terminology and carefully defining exactly what you mean. It's a continuous struggle.
     
  3. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Nationalist Turk criticises Jewish nationalists.
     
  4. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    Those silly Jews, wanting to be free of persecution and wanting to have their own country like everyone else.
     
  5. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Howdy

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    I don't see a modern Iroquois or Cherokee state, do you?
     
  6. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Doesn't mean they don't want one. :mischief:
     
  7. Silurian

    Silurian Warlord

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    Well they still have to wait about 1900 years.
     
  8. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I do see a lot of indians demanding autonomy over their ancestral homeland, or parts of it. And many of them do have quite a bit of autonomy. In my country indians won in the Supreme Court the right to kick out farmers who were in their land for almost 200 years.

    Glad to know they're committing crimes against humanity; round them up I say. Push the indians to the sea!

    Oh, and Erdogan is a moron and has buried for a generation any chance Turkey might have had of joining the EU. Anyone who digs up my old posts on the subject will see I considered Turkish membership very positive for both sides; now I'm convinced Turkey has no place in Europe. Let them cozy up with their ideological ilk in the ME.
     
  9. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    The remark about Zionism doesn't surprise me but the remark about Islamophobia I think is especially ridiculous and I think it's similar to things he said when the movie mocking the Prophet Muhammad came out. I see a big difference between discrimination against Muslims and a criticism or mockery of Islam, especially when people in Western countries do the exact same thing to Christianity. The way Jesus is mocked in South Park, Family Guy, modern art and other controversial movies like Last Temptation of Christ (not necessarily mockery in that movie but offensive to Christians).
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    I may be wrong, but the Native Americans did not want their own country in the same sense that nationalist do. I don't think they held to the notion of property rights. While they protected their interest, I think they thought the land belonged to everyone or no one. While they were forced to nationalize because of the European claims on their territories, they were railroaded by all entities (especially the newly formed US) until their chances of having their own country became extinct. Of course it may be hard for me to understand the situation, since I am a product of a society where national pride was a right, not a privilege.

    I don't think that any one who declares a privilege will hold that privilege successfully unless the entity that afforded such privilege shows up.
     
  11. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    If ideologies can be judged by crimes committed by its followers in its name, Zionism still has a moral high ground to Turkish nationalism. By far in fact. That said, such reasoning is immensely stupid anyway: It clearly reveals being unable to think abstractly and hence separate the basic ideological ideas from things that are loosely associated with it.
     
  12. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    Interesting comparison, one difference I see is that Turkish Nationalism is more inclusive, if you adopt the Turkish identity you are a Turk. With Zionism that's different, but I'm not saying that makes it better really.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Why did you pick only two of the four terms to not be "crimes against humanity" instead of all of them? Are anti-Semitism or fascism "crimes against humanity" in and of themselves? Or is it only when they lead to the deaths of millions of Jews and others through the acts of the Nazis during WWII, or in the case of the latter with the pogroms that killed thousands, that they become so?

    It would also be interesting to hear all of Erdogan's remarks in this speech instead of a single sentence, as well as any explanation he might have regarding them. It could possibly be another misinterpretation like that which occurred over Ahmadinejad's similar comments regarding Israel.


    Link to video.

    Furthermore, being opposed to current "Zionist" policies including oppression and apartheid is hardly the same as "thinking that Israel should" not "exist". Has Erdogan actually stated that? Or is he merely disagreeing with the policies of the current government towards Muslims in general, and Palestinians in particular?

    That said, if the remark does turn out to be what he actually meant, I don't think Erdogan should have tried to shoehorn all this into one single sentence like that. He should apologize for lumping Zionism in with all of them, especially anti-Semitism and Islamophobia which are essentially the same thing only directed at two different groups.

    Mocking Islam is hardly Islamophobic, while discriminating against Muslims or thinking that Islam is inherently evil is. Do you have any evidence that is what Erdogan was referring to here?
     
  14. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    No but I remember some comments he made about Islamophobia back when this film came out.

    This is his statement about Zionism, but it seems like the main focus is Islamophobia.

    Just like Zionism, just like Anti-Semitism, just like fascism, Islamophobia has inevitably become a crime against humanity.


    - Actually after looking at an older article, it looks like he made very similar comments about the film -

    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-292...-be-recognized-as-crime-against-humanity.html

     
  15. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    That's interesting. I think that particular translation is far less offensive. He seems to be suggesting that none of them in and of themselves are "crimes against humanity" as portrayed in the OP and in the Western press. Instead, he appears to be saying that they can lead to crimes against humanity. Again, it would be even better to be able to read or hear his entire speech to determine the context of the remark.

    Even so, it certainly wasn't politically astute to include Zionism in that form. He should realize by now that much of the Western media and representatives of governments favorable to the policies of the Israeli government would crucify him for it.

    And as for laws forbidding the mocking of religion is concerned, good luck with that. Laws against sacrilege in modern countries disappeared long ago for very good reason.
     
  16. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I'm trying to find more info about it. I've debated this some with Turkish people because many of them see Erdogan as the worst thing ever. Turkey is said to have more journalists in jail than any other country now and they are often arrested for being terrorists. Still, I don't find him much worse than previous governments and his government is better on minority rights (still a lot of room to improve and that's not really saying much considering how terrible minority rights were in Turkey before) and now they are tackling abuse in the military. I don't know how much they will improve there but at least the issue is being addressed. I also don't see how the headscarf ban really helps anyone either.
     
  17. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I think the one thing we can all agree on is that denial of any one of the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocides certainly constitute a crime against humanity.
     
  18. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Howdy

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    Point was living as a majority in an ethnically-defined nation-state is in itself not a right.
     
  19. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Don't people have a right to self-determination?
     
  20. ace99

    ace99 Chieftain

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    No particularly.
     

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