Turkish PM: Zionism is a crime against humanity

[Borachio]

Well. I do. I've determined.

 

[Cutlass]

Point was living as a majority in an ethnically-defined nation-state is in itself not a right.

I never thought that it was. However sometimes the history of a situation makes any other outcome unjust as well.

 

[caketastydelish]

There seems to be no dispute here that anti-semitism and fascism are considered crimes against humanity on this forum.

The other two (Zionism and Islamaphobia) are the ones in dispute.

So can we at least get a clear definition on what those two terms mean? Especially Zionism. I've never really understood it myself.

edit: and as for my own beliefs, I'm probably not as pro-Isreal as say, Winner, but I'm not as harshly anti-Isreal as many of you. My family is Iranian (presumably the group that hates Jews) and none of them are a tenth as harsh on Israel as many of you. Even my dad who criticizes them do not view them as negatively as so many of you guys. I find it kind of shocking, actually, that you all hate Israel so much. Ace99 once said (I forget the exact quote) something along the lines that boycotting goods and services from Israel is justified, and the guy that refused to debate an Israeli was right. I think this is really sad to see.

I don't agree with everything Israel does, but then again I don't agree with everything my own country (USA) does. Tons of countries do things I don't agree with. This does not justify the kind of hatred many of you give Israel. I also disagree with Winner because he seems to agree with pretty much everything Israel does like a mindless robot, but many of you take it way, way too far. Even if you all are right that Israel is full of hatred and violence, by hating them with the passion that you all do, you all prove you're no better than Israel is.

 

[luiz]

So can we at least get a clear definition on what those two terms mean? Especially Zionism. I've never really understood it myself.

Basically, Zionism is just the advocacy of a Jewish homeland in historic Israel. It can also be understood as form of Jewish nationalism, as a resistance to assimilation into Christian or Muslim society.

There are of course many legitimate criticisms to be made against such an ideology. The return to an ancestral homeland is quite problematic, and many would prefer assimilation. And bad things can be done in the name of Zionism (as in the name of any ideology).

But to call the ideology a crime against humanity? Come on. That would be only stupid if it was not pure bigotry as well.

 

[caketastydelish]

Well I don't think Israel's borders should be that of what it was thousands of years ago, but I do believe boycotting Israel's goods/services/people is also pathetic.

 

[Luckymoose]

Zionism is a crime against humanity. Jews have no right to that land. All humans came out of Africa, but you don't see anyone wanting to claim Ethiopia besides Ethiopians. Zionism is a leading cause of instability in the world, thus the Zionists are criminals.

 

[caketastydelish]

Zionism is a crime against humanity. Jews have no right to that land. All humans came out of Africa, but you don't see anyone wanting to claim Ethiopia besides Ethiopians. Zionism is a leading cause of instability in the world, thus the Zionists are criminals.

So basically what you're saying is all Jews should leave Israel now because of something that was decided in the past that was unfair. Similarly, all Americans who are not Native Americans should get out of America because we have no right to that land. Sure it was decided in the past but using your logic the same should apply.

Note that I don't believe in *extending* Israel's borders more than they currently are, but to oppose the state of Israel all together is honestly beyond me.

 

[ace99]

Zionism also opposes allowing Jews to assimilate into other nations and by emphasizing the Jewishness of the state it inevitably creates an apartheid society where Jews are primus inter pares and everyone else is a second class citizen. It is fundamentally a bigoted, racist and imperialist ideology that was better suited to the 19th and 20th centuries than it is today.

In that regard, Zionist ideology could be constructed as a crime against humanity in the same way white supremacy in apartheid South Africa was. And let us not forget notably Zionist terrorist groups like Irgun and Haganah.

 

[caketastydelish]

<nvm> I guess what I meant to say is that it is possible to oppose Zionism without opposing the state of Israel itself.

Second, if we're going to criticize Israel for their unfair actions (which is fair enough as far as I'm concerned) can't we also criticize terrorism AGAINST Israel? Or it only works one way?

 

[Formaldehyde]

There seems to be no dispute here that anti-semitism and fascism are considered crimes against humanity on this forum.

What utter nonsense. Many people are anti-Semitic yet they have not committed any such crimes, nor do they even condone them. The same goes for fascists.

Second, if we're going to criticize Israel for their unfair actions (which is fair enough as far as I'm concerned) can't we also criticize terrorism AGAINST Israel? Or it only works one way?

How many people in this forum only blame the Israelis for the ongoing atrocities on both sides?

OTOH how many blame the Palestinians and other Muslims while not criticizing Israel in the least?

"Or it only works one way"?

 

[Borachio]

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Which seems to say it all. To my mind.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I am reminded of Israeli settlers in Gaza claiming the very same thing before Israel finally withdrew...

"We don't care what the world thinks. We are god's chosen people."


Link to video.

In any circumstances where the presence of a Gentile causes danger to Israel, it is permitted to kill the Gentile.

In cases where there is a strong suspicion that someone will continue persecuting Jews, it is permissible to kill them, even if at this moment he is not actively persecuting.

How it should be:


Link to video.

Instead of this:


Link to video.

 

[caketastydelish]

How many people in this forum only blame the Israelis for the ongoing atrocities on both sides?

OTOH how many blame the Palestinians and other Muslims while not criticizing Israel in the least?

"Or it only works one way"?

Well, for every one comment that people criticize terrorism against Israel on this forum (90% of which probably come from Winner) I can probably find a minimum of five comments criticizing Israel. I'm not saying it is unjust to criticize Israel when they do wrong things, but why basically only criticize one side?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Winner is certainly one of those who only seems to be able to see one side of this matter, and is frequently vocal about it. But he is hardly responsible for 90% of the one-sided comments.

How do those who criticize both sides respond to these incessant posts in this forum? They do so by pointing out how the Israeli government is also to blame.

Do these individuals who see both sides of the issues outnumber those who only see one side by a 5-1 margin? I would certainly hope so, but I doubt it is really that high. While that may be true for those who don't live in the US, it is likely much lower than that when you consider the entire forum.

Just look at the negative reaction that Obama and Hagel have stirred by not being as vehemently in favor of the acts of the Israeli government as many Americans are.

 

[Borachio]

Well, for every one comment that people criticize terrorism against Israel on this forum (90% of which probably come from Winner) I can probably find a minimum of five comments criticizing Israel. I'm not saying it is unjust to criticize Israel when they do wrong things, but why basically only criticize one side?

Just who are you thinking of when you say (or so you seem to be implying) there are posters who only criticize Israel?

I don't know who you might be referring to.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I seem to remember one person actually claiming that only Israel was to blame in the past when this very topic came up. But I can't remember who it was.

 

[Tahuti]

I seem to remember one person actually claiming that only Israel was to blame in the past when this very topic came up. But I can't remember who it was.

Probably Abegweit or AL_DA_GREAT.

 

[Formaldehyde]

No. It wasn't anybody like that. I was actually quite surprised, and the comment went largely unnoticed if I remember correctly.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Zionism is a crime against humanity. Jews have no right to that land. All humans came out of Africa, but you don't see anyone wanting to claim Ethiopia besides Ethiopians.

I'm a single-binational-state guy, but that's pretty sucky reasoning.

Oh, and the majority of blame does clearly lie with Israel.

 

[Arwon]

Basically, Zionism is just the advocacy of a Jewish homeland in historic Israel. It can also be understood as form of Jewish nationalism, as a resistance to assimilation into Christian or Muslim society.

Zionism is just Jewish nationalism. There's different forms and historically (ie in the 19th century) not all Zionist currents thought historic Israel had to be the territory.

Edit: actually maybe the guys writing in favour of Jewish emancipation and forming a new state on general terms aren't generally considered Zionist I dunno