Turkish PM: Zionism is a crime against humanity

[Formaldehyde]

One thing certainly hasn't changed. You tried to rationalize and defend Winner's statements back then as you continue to do now.

And I haven't made any "personal insults" in this thread, much less directed at you.

 

[Flying Pig]

Point to me where Winner did exactly this.

I have absolutely no inclination to do so; I don't care about mud-slinging concerning specific posters. I was simply trying to add to a discussion on racism.

 

[illram]

Moderator Action: @ the entire thread: Enough with the name calling. Please try to remain civil, otherwise this thread could probably use a time out.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Tahuti]

While a consideration you have suggested the views Winner made on the Romai is relevant to THIS discussion. Racism does not tend to a take a single target. It is a consideration that we must take account of this.

Would that include the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians because "the Israelis were clearly more civilized"?

We are talking about this thread, not things that have been said in the past. What's the point of debating this when it is already deemed impossible that the poster's views are completely immutable anyway? I find it fairly alarming that someone whose signature advocates debating-chivalry breaks it by raising past statements. It changes the rules of the match while the game is still ongoing and devalues the outcome of the debate, regardless whether it is ongoing or if it has winners.

That said, Ailedhoo's comment on that racism tends to take more than one target is certainly true. However, racism, in turn, is usually underlied by a more a general world view that does not think of human society as consisting of completely autonomous individuals, and thus society won't always have to answer people as individuals. That too must be taken into account. It is pointless to criticize racism without identifying the premises racist beliefs rest on.

 

[Formaldehyde]

There is nothing in my sig that even suggests that statements made in the past are not germane to the topic. And again, I have not even insinuated that anybody is a racist here so I don't appreciate you insinuating I did by even mentioning my post in this context.

I merely pointed out that Winner has made comments that would suggest that has indeed expressed "anti-Arab" sentiments.

 

[Borachio]

That said, Ailedhoo's comment on that racism tends to take more than one target is certainly true. However, racism, in turn, is usually underlied by a more a general world view that does not think of human society as consisting of completely autonomous individuals, and thus society won't always have to answer people as individuals. That too must be taken into account. It is pointless to criticize racism without identifying the premises racist beliefs rest on.

That's interesting. I'm rather inclined to think that human society doesn't consist of completely autonomous individuals. (I'm certainly not completely autonomous myself, for instance.) Does this make me a racist?

I'm just curious what the thinking is here. I'm not trying to make any point one way or another.

the capacity of a rational individual to make an informed, un-coerced decision. In moral and political philosophy, autonomy is often used as the basis for determining moral responsibility for one's actions.

Hmm. Do I have moral responsibility for my actions? I really don't know whether I do or not. I shall have to think about it.

 

[Masada]

A Kemalist would say you'd become a Turk from the moment you have Turkish citizenship. So I'd go get for it if you want to be a Turk so bad.

Provide some evidence that isn't rhetorical.

We are talking about this thread, not things that have been said in the past.

"Lets sweep this racism under the carpet... what was that about the A-rabs?"

I don't think you grasp the concept of racism then.

I'm not an Eastern European? Enough said.

 

[ace99]

HEY REMEMBER THOSE SEGREGATED BUSES I POSTED ABOUT YESTERDAY!!!???

Well....

Unknown assailants have set fire to two buses which Israel began operating as Palestinians-only lines to be used by Palestinian labourers travelling between the West Bank and Israel.

"Two buses were apparently set on fire but we are looking into all possibilities," police spokeswoman Luba Samri told AFP news agency on Tuesday, saying the incident took place in the Arab-Israeli town of Kfar Qassem which lies very close to the Green Line.

Police sources quoted by army radio said the buses had been torched as a protest against the new transportation system which came into effect on Monday.

The incident took place just hours after Israel began running separate bus lines for Palestinian workers and Jewish settlers, in a move which was bluntly denounced by an Israeli rights group as "segregation" and "simple racism."

But Israel's transport ministry denied the charge, saying Palestinians with a permit to work in Israel were allowed to travel "on all public transport lines."

Sharp criticism

The controversy over the separate bus lines continued to draw sharp criticism from Palestinian officials on Tuesday.

"This is a racist policy of segregation," deputy labour minister Assef Said told AFP.

His remarks were echoed by the Palestinian Workers' Union which also denounced it as "a racist measure" and said the buses would become an easy target for attacks by settler extremists.

The new bus route ferries Palestinian workers from the Eyal checkpoint just north of the West Bank city of Qalqilya to several cities in Israel where they have permits to work.

The transport ministry says the new lines are to serve Palestinian workers entering Israel in a bid "to replace the pirate operators who transport the workers at inflated fares."

But Israeli media reports said the service was launched after Jewish settlers complained that forcing them to share public transport with Palestinians was a security risk.

Until now, the workers have been reaching Israel by catching buses which run from outside Jewish settlements which they would ride alongside settlers travelling to Israel.

Ron Nahman, the late mayor of Ariel settlement, had in November said he was in talks with the army, the police and the transport ministry to find ways of "stopping Palestinians from boarding the buses that go to Ariel."

"All of them are working on this problem, and we hope that they will soon find a solution to the reality that is bothering our people," he wrote on his Facebook page.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/20133514230798542.html

 

[Tahuti]

That's interesting. I'm rather inclined to think that human society doesn't consist of completely autonomous individuals. (I'm certainly not completely autonomous myself, for instance.) Does this make me a racist?

I'm just curious what the thinking is here. I'm not trying to make any point one way or another.

Of course such doesn't make you a racist. In fact, I pretty much think the same way. But if you believe that humans are in fact autonomous individuals, racism will be quite difficult to defend. Racists usually have a world-view that stresses tradition and sees individuals as defined by their surroundings and inherited characteristics as opposed to personal choices. This precludes radical individualism, naturally, and is closer aligned to a communitarian world-view, though communitarians are not necessarily racist.

There is nothing in my sig that even suggests that statements made in the past are not germane to the topic. And again, I have not even insinuated that anybody is a racist here so I don't appreciate you insinuating I did by even mentioning my post in this context.

I merely pointed out that Winner has made comments that would suggest that has indeed expressed "anti-Arab" sentiments.

I'm not insinuating that you are claiming Winner or theLastOne are racist, but I don't think raising past statements are a good idea. Pretty much every thread where that happens tends to quickly degrade into a flame war, even when there is no intention to at all.

Provide some evidence that isn't rhetorical.

I think we are stuck here. Its pretty hard to distinguish rhetorical from non-rhetorical to bring evidence that either of us is right.

 

[classical_hero]

HEY REMEMBER THOSE SEGREGATED BUSES I POSTED ABOUT YESTERDAY!!!???

Well....


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/20133514230798542.html

Well the situation is that we are talking about a group of people who have been known to somehow blow themselves up. If you lived in an area where this happened, would you feel safe travelling with a group like that? Security of your citizens is the most important issue for any government.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-company-to-run-separate-buses-for-palestinians/

An Israeli bus company will offer special bus lines to transport Palestinian passengers from the West Bank into central Israel.

The institution of the special lines by the Afikim bus company is meant to ease the overcrowding of bus lines that go into Jewish settlements, the Transportation Ministry told Ynet.

Palestinians cannot enter Jewish settlements. They board the buses at stops on the Trans-Samaria Highway.

Jewish bus riders have complained that the buses were overcrowded and said they were concerned about security risks, Ynet reported. Jewish and Palestinian riders have scuffled verbally and physically on the buses, according to reports.

The buses will run from stops near Palestinian communities into Israel. Still, the Palestinians legally cannot be refused permission to board the regular bus lines, an unnamed Afikim bus driver told Ynet. They could, however, be removed from the buses at Israeli checkpoints, which would be both inconvenient and humiliating.

“The new lines will replace irregular pirate lines that charge very high prices from Palestinian passengers,” the Transportation Ministry said in a statement. “The new lines will reduce congestion and will benefit Israelis and Palestinians alike.

“The Transportation Ministry is forbidden from preventing any passenger from boarding any line of public transportation, nor do we know of a directive to that effect. Instituting these lines was done with the knowledge and complete agreement of the Palestinians.”

So even the Palestinians agree with doing this, they must love self apartheid. A solution to help both parties is so wrong.

 

[useless]

"A solution to help both parties is so wrong"

A solution in which Apartheid is used, one which you seem to endorse.

I guess those South Africans that accepted the fact that their government was ruled by a cabal of white men and continued to live in South Africa loved apartheid.

...This is the argument you are making C_H.

 

[classical_hero]

You have to prove that the Blacks in South Africa approved of the situation. Here the Palestinians gave agreement to this happening since they saw the benefit. AS far as I know, the Blacks in South Africa did not get any consultation when the situation was set up. Here the situation is beneficial to both parties, not one.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-south-africa-bus/

1. Afikim (which BTW is a joint company where half of the company is owned by Arabs) was set up to serve the Ariel area lines for the Israeli citizens. Many of the drivers are Arabs.A number of those who use the lines are Arab students studying at the university in Ariel.

2. Arab residents of Judea and Shomron, are, as a rule (because of security concerns) , unbale to work outside of Judea and Shomron although many work in Barkan and in other places where Afikim goes. Perhaps some Arabs have permits to work in the center of the country, and they also use the routes.

3. Since the routes were not meant for the Arabs they do not serve them very well and any changes will be beneficial to those Arabs wanting to work in the center of the country. At any rate, Arabs will still be able to use any Afikim lines and sit anywhere on the bus where there is an available seat.

4.What do you understand or don't Marc. Makes all the sense in the world to create special lines for special needs and in the end the Arabs will have better bus service and not worse. As for the need, it stems from security idiot, and not because some one wants seperate buses fro Arabs and Jews (see the part about Israeli Arabs how travel exactly like their Jewish fellow citizens. As for not printing material for in Hebrew, why should they?

The Left is wacko and brainless more times than not. This case you are writing like a brainiless wacko. Go learn something useful and then write.

This is a comment to the blog which states some of the facts of the situtation.

 

[useless]

You're still literally supporting, endorsing and advocating segregation based upon ethnicity.

 

[classical_hero]

They are segregating based on nationality, not ethnicity. If they were having separate buses for Jews and then separate buses for Arabs, and the like, then your charge would be true, but separating citizens from non citizens is not Apartheid. So if they didn't provide this service then the Palestinians would have take a Taxi or other means to get there. It is amazing how the fact that the Israelis are providing a new service to Palestinians to use and typical of the left, they are up in arms about it. The fact that they have to separate the two groups is for security reasons.
http://myrightword.blogspot.co.il/2013/03/low-intensity-conflict-report-70.html

Report on security issues February 22-March 1, 2013

These reports are translated and publicized byYehudit Tayar for Hatzalah Yehudah and Shomron with the clearance and confirmation of the IDF. Hatzalah Yehudah and Shomron is a voluntary emergency medical organization with over 500 volunteer doctors, paramedics, medics who are on call 24/7 and work along with the IDF, 669 IAF Airborn Rescue, the security officers and personal throughout Yesha and the Jordan Valley, and with MDA.


We, the volunteers of Hatzalah Yehudah and Shomron go out to rescue anyone who needs our emergency medical assistance; including civilians, military and Arabs also those within the PA territories. (with IDF presence) To us a life is precious and we go out at risk leaving home and family or stopping on the road to rescue anyone in need.


2 IDF officers and 6 IDF soldiers and a policeman were injured from rock attacks:
1 IDF soldier injured in Hevron near Bet Hadassah
1 IDF soldier injured in his face near Bet Umar
1 IDF Company Officer injured in his leg in Bet Umar
1 policeman injured in his leg in Issowiya
1 IDF soldier injured in his face at Bet Umar
IDF Deputy Company Officer and IDF soldier injured in Bodrous
IDF soldier injured in his arm in El Fuar
IDF soldier injured in his eye at the Taxi Junction near A'Ram

2 Adults and an infant were injured on Gilad Road
1 Female Israeli injured on Gilad Road
5 year old child injured in Husan Bypass
1 injured in Sdei Kelev
Security co-ordinator of Mevo Dotan injured
All of the injuries were moderate ones but do not forget that rocks are lethal weapons and are aimed to kill and innocent people have been seriously injured and murdered by rocks.
At least 36 Molotov Cocktails were thrown:
Calandia checkpost- 2
Kever Rachel -1
Near Einav at IDF force -3
Near Telem at Border Police force -3
Abu Dis at Border Police force -3
Bir Zeit pillbox set fire to a solar container by -1 Molotov thrown on it
Bitunia – several thrown on security forces
Between Dotan and Hermesh at IDF vehicle -1
Police checkpost Hevron -3
Bet Hadassah -1
Betunia -2
Jerusalem bypass road at Border Patrol -5
Highway 443 car attacked -2
Tunnel Road Security Force attacked -1
Dir Abu Ishal -1
Ma'aleh Hever Israeli vehicle attacked -1
Karnei Shomron Security Fence -2
Bet Umar IDF force -2
At least 8 improvised hand grenades were thrown at Kever Rachel
An improvised explosive device was thrown at Security vehicle at Silwan.

There were scores of rock attacks some of them blamed on the death of the Arab terrorist Arafat Gradat in Megido Prison. Let us not forget that the rock attacks occur daily.

Rocks attacks:

Near Esh Kodesh , Kadum, Tourmous Aya, Several areas in Hevron,Bet Anun,Bet Umar,Halhul Bridge,Azun,Near A'Ram,Hawara,Near el Hadar,Near Shilo,Kever Rachel,Near Havla,Betunia,Gilad Road,Anata,Pundok,Near Ofra,El Arub,Postman Junction,Lubin A'Shrakia,Near Tekoa,T-Junction and Hirbat Adir,Yitzhar Junction,Near Kalil,El Fuar,Bodrous,Marda,Husan Bypass,Sdei Kelev,Zif Junction, Betilo, Itamar, Near Einav, Near Hermesh, Aduraim Junction, Tekoa- har Homa Highway, Near Sussia, Near Otzsrin, Near Neve Yair, Na'alin, Northern entrance to Efrat, Near Ariel, Betit Junction.

M75 rocket fired from Gaza to the Industrial Area of Ashkelon.

Any nation that doesn't protect it's citizen doesn't deserve the support of it's people. the main reason they are "Palestinian Only" is they counter for areas where Palestinians live and work, so by logic it will be a near majority Palestinian service. The Palestinians aren't even denied using other buses, just that this service is specifically provided for them to use to get to work, I can't see how this is Apartheid at all, since Israel is providing a service specifically for the Palestinians to use, where they had none. Before they had to take taxis or hire a minibus, both expensive options.

 

[r16]

as was to be expected conciliatory stuff comes from the goverment . Since the PM said so and so in Vienna , the number 2 of the goverment was in Germany for a religious tolerance conference . And just expectedly the delivery is all about a "win-win" situation . Israel accepts the new conditions in Turkey and the goverment will say nothing against their sacred values .

you understand nothing ? Simple , real simple . The Islamists in my country have an overblown view about the Israeli influence in the world . Am not denying Tel Aviv holds lots of ropes in Washington D.C. and plays Uncle Sam as a puppet -and not just because the appearence suits Americans , too . Anyhow the "reform" in my country has been long played as a righteous struggle against Jews and their agents here ; there is this effort to make a deal with the seperatists so that they will give up "armed struggle" and a newspaper long regarded as the "admiral ship" of the Closet Jew media has published some papers where the dear seperatist leader under custody in some island jail since 1999 appears to be dictating the terms . The reform runs on undisputed power of the Islamists who crush anyone that talks too much . Since nothing ever happens to the seperatists -those approved by the State , Goverment etc etc , the second best has to be re-applied . To the military ; another former general arrested in the Wave 13 of February 28 investigations .

which reinforces the increasing belief of the common folk that America put this goverment in charge to divide the country . It's still amazing to see the way the TV debates now can be "won" by people who don't like the goverment policies . It is becoming disturbing for the new elites of Turkey , who had this agreement with the West . That in order to be a locomotive for change in Middle East , we would look like anti-Semitic and the Arab streets would love us and they would be allowed to do whatever they wanted , the least being the glorious conquest of Syria as a stepping stone for even bigger things . Halfway in the game , the West has cast them into the wild sea , though this will be laughed at as well . There is going to be a Civil War in Turkey , and not just because the Islamists have been destroying the old without putting in anything new / everything they have done will be tainted with hypocracy . Hence , a deal is offered . So that Tel Aviv shuts up Turkish media .

which was long coming . Recently , people who openly declare affiliation with British Intelligence have been pushing that the evil people in Turkey are actually "Christian" operatives and stuff , not some secret Jewish cabal . You might remember from my endless bellyaching that there is this TV show hosted by "Eyecandy" and there was this horsey guest . Seen elsewhere , he now claims the old Republic in Turkey was liked only because those Greeks and Armenians who pose as Turks hence Muslims want a secular hence Godless governance .

ah yes ... And no anti-American rant today ? Why , sure there is ... John Kerry here , for an memorial about the suicide attack against the Embassy in Ankara , meets the President and stuff , provides a stern dressing for the words . And the next day - just to stress who has primacy- visits Anıtkabir , Atatürk's Mausoleum . Nobody should be encouraged to think America will give up the thing , right ... Naturally , it might lead to extra orbital bombardment , so we have the King of Jordan on a state visit immediately after . He visits Anıtkabir first , with tears in eyes . He is a decent guy , ı hear he would make his father proud ; but can it be really that the Arab rebellion still stings ? Even Lawrence lived past 1938 , right ? And ı don't remember that we gave America the right to put Jordan under us , to establish pecking orders ans stuff ... Save time and don't put Anıtkabir on the to-do list for American dignitaries at all , isn't Kemal a false prophet anyhow ?

 

[Arwon]

separating citizens from non citizens is not Apartheid.

I don't really want to touch the broader thread but you are dead wrong. That is literally the mechanism by which apartheid worked from 1970 onwards.

 

[useless]

And he supports it remember, Arwon!

It seems Apartheid is only acceptable when it involves palestinians/arabs/people he has no "time for".

 

[caketastydelish]

What I've learned from this:

Anyone who defends Israel is a fascist, racist, nazi.

 

[Borachio]

Well, they may not be. They may just be willfully ignorant.

Or it could be of course, just those pesky Palestinians causing trouble for no good reason. If only they'd just go away, eh?

 

[Arwon]

What I've learned from this:

Anyone who defends Israel is a fascist, racist, nazi.

Calm down son.