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Turn 1-50

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by DaveShack, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    LOL, good one, but I stole it way before that with the library. ToA just sealed the deal.
    Spoiler :
    Also, in this particular game our capitols are like 7-8 tiles distant? If our second cities are fighting with culture... Also, I was building ToA in Moscow for some good fail gold, having marble, but nobody wanted to build it. Then we got a NAP with you, so I no longer needed to build army on that front, where I needed my production in Moscow for something else and I ended up building it on your border. To be honest, a grassland copper is just too sweet tile :) But I am not a mean guy, I gave you back the resource for free, where I was not obliged to do so.


    We will indeed, but had not enough workers :) And had to build granary in there before allowing it to grow where Teras had already 4 good tiles to work all the time, so it worked not unimproved tile at any point.
     
  2. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    No hard feelings. Thanks for the copper back. :)
     
  3. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    All this we are doing in the good faith that Mantra will be our Holy Hindu city and the current micro-plan is to give Mantra a good tile (improved deers) the fastest possible way. This tile is just enormously strong.

    But you are right that we can have SH 1-2 turns earlier. Problem is the forests are aligned diagonally and this mess up with the NE direction from where our workers are coming. I tried some cases, but was able to shave a turn (not sure about 2) at the cost of not building the mine in time (which loses hammers for the SH) and having no road for third settler, which delays him 1 turn, thus delays Hindu date 1 turn, etc. Will try it again tomorrow, maybe I missed something.

    Also, lets hope everything in the simulation reflects the game correctly - somewhere 1 or 2 hammers/beakers can be the difference between win or lose so early.

    Also, thanks Yossa for the sandbox, although not 100% perfect it is more than awesome and appreciated. And thanks for the support for the micro too.
     
  4. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Few off-topic words, but I just dont know where they belong (we should have a meeting hall thread where we talk some off-topics linked or not at all to the game I think). I have already said I am not the best (or patient) micromanager out there - my strengths in the game are in other areas, but if I see the team needs micro-plan and direction, I will do my best to help the team. Till now I was relaxed we have vranasm, bcool and bistrita to take care of the MM and development part, but I do not see Vransm around recently (he felt a bit insulted and disregarded I think), bistrita (who is exceptional player btw - one of the strongest in the world - and on which wise advices to help the team I was relying a lot) have disappeared from Civ-playing at all as far as I know (Sommers, you might well be right... again), and bcool is more busy with the SGOTM (he is member of his SGOTM team way longer than he is of the CFC ISDG2012 team, so I tend to understand him).

    So it is up to us - those who are each day here - to try our best. We need to rely on ourselves. Most of you I had never met before the ISDG started, but I can say I am glad we are a team. We have our veterans, we have our newer enthusiastic additions, we have traditions, we have spirit, we have lust for the win. This is the team which I would love to play and win with. Not a team of superstars, who will have their whims and play insulted if someone dont listen to him. We are team of enthusiasts. We are not afraid to try, even if we are wrong sometimes. We complement each-other and we are together. There is our strength. Everyone will contribute to the team with the best of his abilities. This is all we need and I am sure we cant fail.

    Spoiler :
    wow, I am good with the motivational speeches, am I? :D

    But seriously, I will be more around from now on, was a bit away and absent-minded till now. So stick together team!
     
  5. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Well said 2metra. I'm pumped up!

    I did play it through T75 without SH, here are some pictures.

    Spoiler :



    2 more settlers will complete next turn, presumably for the Oasis stone city by RB, and a wine / cows filler city between the stone and our core to bridge the gap. The way the cities are positioned, all resources are accessible with just Mantra's border pop, so I only chopped 1 monument. I put up the second Gold city next to share the gold and two AH resources with Mantra. One works the gold while the other grows, then they switch off.
     
  6. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    While I like Yossarian's better on the face of it, that is right about the time I start wanting border pops, and so without Meditation+monastery+missionaries or OR+monasteries, maybe 2metra's suggestion ain't so bad. (Incidentally, since we picked leaders, Suryavarman has become my favourite. Figures that I understand that now. Oh well, live and learn.)
     
  7. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Turn 46 Demographics (posting them here, as I'm not the current turnlogger, and Yossarian asked for them :))
    Spoiler :

     
  8. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    I just logged in to check the espionage.

    For the turn player: Please note that I had to set a build order in Terasvin, and that I set it to Stonehenge (it was the default suggestion by the game). Please change accordingly to what the city is going to build, if we're not going to build SH there.

    About the espionage: Two interesting things. Our espionage with WPC is now 4/4 - but I also noticed that the espionage with RB is at 60/60. Unless I've misunderstood something, RB should have been 64/60 with us this turn, as we've been running sliders equally with them up until this turn flip. So, if I haven't misunderstood something, RB has also met another team the previous turn, and done exactly the same thing we did - put the espy weight to +1 with that team. I may be wrong here though, as I'm not 100% familiar with the espy system.
     
  9. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Or met one earlier and been weighting it to us. That's the other possibility. But it's impossible for them to only know us and spend on us fewer than 4/turn.
     
  10. bcool

    bcool Deity

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    I think it is a mistake to try and build stonehenge without stone.

    If I understand the plan, the team expects to found a religion which will help with some border pops, so I'd rather have another settler than stonehenge.
     
  11. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Ah, good, I was hoping you will comment on this. I wanted to hear your reasons.

    Why you think a settler is better than SH? Because we might lose the SH or because the settler will give us better return than the SH?
     
  12. bcool

    bcool Deity

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    From what I gather from these games, there is a lot of competition for resources and land. I would rather use the settler to secure stone or another strategic/luxury resource or just claim land from another team.

    If we found a religion we will get some border pops from random spread and if we really want a fast border pop we can probably manage to build a missionary for that city.

    Having a religion as a spiritual civilization is really quite nice, dips into OR or dips into theocracy will maximize the benefit from being spiritual.

    Plus other great people are better than prophets usually unless we have a specific plan for a prophet I'm unaware of. So I'm not that excited by the great prophet points from stonehenge.
     
  13. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    One is useful for a shrine I find. Beyond that... well, if we need Theocracy or the Spiral Minaret I suppose another might come in handy to bulb with.
     
  14. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I would be interested to see the demographics. Also how it develops to turn 85. I will play mine to turn 85 tonight too.
     
  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    If you mean SH is too expensive for what it gives, I tend to not agree. I already said my reasoning for wanting to build the SH, but I will try to do so even further.

    Usually yes, but this early? What one would like to use his Great Person for?

    - Settling a Great Person? Here a GProphet is also not worse than anyone and better than the most I can say. He can measure with a GSci, who gives 6 science and 1 hammer, where the Prophet gives 5 gold and 2 hammers.

    - Building a special building? Academy is a must for each capitol, but is it much better this early than a Holy Shrine, which a GProphet can build? I can bet the difference will be slight.

    - Bulbing? Well, here a GProphet is just inferior to almost any other type of GP, except maybe a GArtist.

    - Starting a Golden Age? A prophet is just as good at that as anyone else. Plus, it is FREE! Yes, it just comes at turn 100. No need to build library (another ~100 hammers building, which needs to be built separately. Yes, a library will give you 25% science multiplier, but to get the GP producing benefit from it, you need to put citizens working in it. Which is counter-productive in the commerce power-house where we would like to build a lib normally, as it takes away two 3 food 3 commerce tiles to put them working in the library. And halts the growth of our FIN cottages. And in a high food city, where supporting the scientists isnt a problem, well there we would have to build a library, which almost equals the hammer cost of the SH especially for the purpose of producing GP points. Not to mention I doubt we can have a GSci before a GProphet - in mine and in Yossarian's sandboxes I see no library built till turn 70-75 in a high food city to even try making a GS. Where the GProphet is just free. He just appears magically :)

    No such plans, but as you see, we have quite a flexibility - we can use the GP for whatever we decide will benefit us most. at that time.

    Come on, we will DEPEND on random spread while planting our cities or timing when we are getting resources? Thats not serious, that is not how one wins a highly competitive game.

    What, we will have to research a whole new tech or two to be able to build missioners which to spread the religion to pop up borders? You will say we would want to have OR anyway, but that is not exactly "fast border pop". Not to mention a single missioner cost as much as 1/3 of the whole SH World Wonder. Which means hammers sunk in it and additional time wasted building the missionary, while the borders dont pop meanwhile. The same goes for monuments. just 4 monuments built and we are at the cost of the whole SH, without counting the other benefits.

    if you mean we building it without stone, might lose it to someone, who have stone, I strongly doubt anyone have stone at the moment. The map is really balanced as I see it till now, so someone having Stone in reach before t50, having discovered Masonry and improved it will be real surprise for me. And if we are at the same start with no-stone building it, we have some advantages already - namely the speed our workers improve hills for mines and chop forests. We have the fast workers. Other teams might be reluctant losing their worker turns climbing hills and entering forest if they have flatland available to improve at this point. Also, I see pretty much all teams whipping settlers and building warriors lately.

    This all is if we get the SH. But what if we indeed lose it? Shall we regret sorely for trying get the SH instead of a settler at all? I dont think so.

    - We will have Terasvin at size 3, allowing him to work 1 more tile, which he would not be working if we were building settler. Which tile is 4 hammers/turn. With chops being equal for both SH and a settler, the difference of those 4 hammers per turn will well make for the difference of 20 hammers in the price for the two (SH being 120 hammers and a settler being 100). With not chopping the 3 forests till the last time, if it happen that we lose the SH earlier to someone else, then no problem for those chops - we will put them in a settler anyway if we lose SH. And what we will get if we lose the SH 1 turn before we chop the forests? we will get 60 coins. Instead of 30 - 40 hammers put in a settler (remember that without the third pop, Terasvin is making just 6 hammers/turn instead of 10 hpt). Is it so bad fail gold? I would be happy to have one more way of transferring 1 hammer for 1.5 gold coins at this stage of the game honestly.

    But what about the missed opportunities of having fourth or fifth city settled some 8-10 turns earlier? If we have no workers to improve their tiles, what is the benefit of city just standing there?
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I think provocative settling and claiming land from other teams will just not work at this level of game. This is the most public game one can imagine. Normally no player will just swallow if someone else steals land from him. This holds true especially more in this game. It is very simple correlation - those who end with less land (read less potential to out-tech and out-produce their neighbors in the long run) after the settling phase, they simply prepare their army and attack the ones who they think wronged to them by grabbing what is rightfully theirs while they still have a chance (heavy land grab always reflects at tech, generally slowing down the bigger empires in a given moment before they catch up and skyrocket ahead). What to speak if we settle a city under someone else's nose leaving big chunk of land unsettled in our direction? How we are gonna defend that city? Will the other team just wave a hand and get back to their business?

    I believe that each team will have place for building normally like 10-15 cities before the land finish. This is more than we can just "quickly claim" for future use and then rely we will catch up at some point. And 10-15 cities are way more than what it takes to have SH break even and brings us return times its own cost.

    Anyway, I am not fanatical about the SH, if Yossa and/or someone else can show better demographics at turn 85 without SH, sure I will support going without SH.
     
  17. bcool

    bcool Deity

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    another worker or another settler instead of stonehenge whatever. I'm not suggesting sending a settler off 20 tiles away from our capital alone. I'm suggesting that the hammers could be better spent. If we need another worker, great build another worker. If we need a library build that instead.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I agree with this too, Academy is nice. And still it depends on how much slider we will have. If we expand heavily, we will have our slider at some 20-30% for a long time and there Academy wont shine much.

    The delay is exactly 17 turns (from 100 to 200 GPP for the second Great Person using only 2 scientists as a GPP generators. 9 turns if we use the Great Prophet to launch a Golden Age.) Not that much, right?

    Agree on that, but saving gold to run it trough the Academy once it is built dont interferes with a GA from the GProphet or if we save more turns gold to put it in the Academy.

    I agree that not all cities needs border pop-ups. I am just trying to compare the benefit from 1 worker against the benefit of having a World Wonder.

    Sure, I agree religion is nice, but when its time comes. I adore Organized Religion and religious economy. With the shrine for our religion (coming with the GProphet from SH ;)) it will be even sweeter to spread religion. I was just commenting on the idea that we could wait a chance or for missionaries to spread religion to get a border pops.

    I want to see it. If it overweight the SH, then sure, we go settler or worker. But my instincts tells me that it will be great if we get the SH. I am used to listen to my instincts. In Civ4 they have served me well and have given me victory in like 80-90% of the games I have played. Also, going for SH is unorthodox. No one else will do it. Swimming not with the mainstream can be hard, but rewarding :)

    All right, if no one else is willing to play a sandbox game to turn 85-90 with worker/settler strategy, I will do one tonight along with the SH sandbox and compare them.
     
  19. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    For the record, I'm not necessarily opposed to SH, and think it would be worthwhile if we can get it. As long as the chops are coming in at the end and can be diverted into a Settler in case we lose the race, then I have no problem at all with making a run for it. I say we follow 2metra's micro plan through T55, only changing things if we lose SH or Poly.

    However, I do have some suggestions for his post-T55 city placements. I'd move the Copper city 7 (NE) to bring Copper and Sheep within it's starting culture (especially if we don't get SH), and plant that as the first or second city after Mantra. I would also build a second Gold city ASAP to share the Gold, Cows and Pigs with Mantra (to make sure the Gold is always worked). I would move the Corn city 6 (W) to bring the Corn and more FP into range. Also, this would be the last city I'd build of these three, since it'll take more Worker turns to set-up and doesn't contribute as much to our empire.

    I probably won't have a chance to play through any more test games in the next few days, but I'll post my T75 save when I get home from work tonight (in about 9 or 10 hours) if anyone wants to continue off that one.
     
  20. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    The location of the horses also makes a difference here. If we have horses already, I think we can delay settling the copper.
     

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