1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Turn 101 - 150

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by YossarianLives, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    It would have been just great if someone could take the job and update our sandbox so we could actually test what benefit can give us having 6-7 cities earlier. Because having them earlier can mean starting to develop them earlier, so they can start repay earlier. And earlier is usually better in civ.
     
  2. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    826
    The simple way to remember it is that you can always draft the best available melee units. So 2 metra is right - macemens, axemans and soldiers are available for drafting, depending on circumstances. You cannot draft archers, longbows, crossbows, any mounted or siege units, etc
     
  3. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    I believe we must "do or do not" about Spaniards. We must stay calm until we are ready to crush them in a single blow. War of attrition can be very costly to us. Although we are way more powerful then them in our potential, they can give us hard time if we underestimate them. I will give again example with the team pitboss where dead-last position Egypt was able to inflict such damages to top-position Sumeria and its middle- position ally Celtia, that at the end, even with the technological advantage Sumeria had (xbows and elephants against axes and spears) the count was close to 100 units lost on Sumeria/Celtia side. This is to illustrate what an indecisive and not-good-planned attack can turn to. We must behead Spaniards with one mighty blow, or it will cost us dearly.

    For settling F1 we can even now, you are right that it wont be any more endangered than Abhi. Main reason which makes me hold back settling it is that we need to whip settler somewhere and once we settle it, it will drag us a bit back before it start to be productive and right now is the moment where we dont want to lose momentum in our research. If we decide to go MC/Machinery/HBR route, once we got those, we can plant not only F1, but also C2 and a city in the NW on the coast of the border lake with RB and WPC. Maybe other locations too.

    It is not that big of an army. We have many workers too and thats why we pay 20 gpt maintenance. And it would be only 5 turns. 2-3 GPs can far outweigh the added cost for our army. Oxford would be also nice, but it wont come for free even with stone. We need 8 (?) universities before this. And I am sure we dont have even 8 libraries at the moment. If we are to whip our cities to get big army, we wont have much population left to whip lib/uni combos in 8 cities.

    Forges are great to have. I would love to have many. It still requires time and whips. If we go the slower route, we might have time for them.

    Might be. But have in mind we might be good with drafted maces instead of whipped and also we would want those two techs anyway at some near point.

    Very constructive input, whb (as always).
     
  4. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Sure, I would love that too. Any ideas for such a chat beside Tinychat?

    We come again to being able to tell what is best - to get Spanish lands at higher cost but earlier or postponing the conquest a bit if we will have better all-round empire at the time. Updating the sandbox anyone? I can provide save updated up to t90-t100 I think, so it is not that much to be added. The Spanish cities and armies of course are to be added.

    It is not without benefits at all. Having Nationalism and being SPI being able to draft when we want is not small thing at all. So we will have our unbeatable ratio 230% increase in hammers for building maces. (30h pop gives us 70h mace).

    We have no doubts about we want to conquer Spanish lands. And in both cases we work towards it actually. Taj is just a bonus. Yeah, great bonus, but only side bonus.

    That is true and I recognized it.

    Least destructive will be if we first tech to Maces, then tech NAT and make the drafts while building Taj, so the unhappiness is worn out and the population is back in the 10 turns while we are able to build Taj. This will also give us time to build/whip a forge for Taj. Of course, this puts our Taj finish date way too back and puts it at great risk of losing it. But... in the meanwhile we will be able to slowly work towards our invading army anyway. One things Bistrita is right about too - that if RB wants, they can be quicker to both Lib and Nat and we cant really do much about it. But, if we make efforts to time things that RB dont have Marble when they are able to build Taj, there is a good chance that they wont start it at all or that they lose the race to our prechopped-marble powered dedicated Taj building strategy. Who knows? We do our best to make things possible and if we see opportunity, we follow it. Adapting.

    Interesting that after so many forth and backs here starts to crystallize the same idea. Again, I would want to test it...

    Of course, pure economies do not exists - in Civ and in RL too. Good leader must take the best from all worlds and use it when it is suitable to the greatest benefit of his nation. We being SPI gives us great flexibility in this regard, so we must not limit ourselves.

    The first post was before and the second post was after I think. For sure where we talk about 500 beakers for RB, it is after they launched their GA.

    My understanding is things need to be timed good. Earliest GA is not exactly best. Bistrita said too that sometimes it is good to wait with your GA to have better base, so you get bigger benefit. Well, there is the snowball effect, I know. Truth is there is not ready formula. One must have the feeling about this. And this feelings usually comes with big experience.

    We can have MC and Machinery in roughly 7-8 turns from now. After this we might be able to tell if we have any chance at all of beating RB to Taj and act upon those new circumstances. Bistrita thinks then will be too late to pursue Taj, but if we give Marble to RB now, they wont be ready to start it now and so they wont have it when they would need it. Also, they dont have much forests to chop, where we had kept some especially for cases like this. We can have possibly have Forge till then, giving us very nice kick start advantage. I prefer not to think defeatist and avoid races, even if with RB. We lost SH, but now we can get Taj under their noses, who knows? We wont know if we dont try. And if we try, we will best know when the time comes.
     
  5. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
  6. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    seems to me like too many conflicting ideas flying around right now...

    some of you mention OU (do you realize that university itself is usually at least 5-6 pop whip after like 5-6 turns of production in typical city which will benefit from them)

    some want to bulb philo/edu

    some want to build forges (again it's like 3-4 pop typical whip)

    some want to steamroll spain (well prepare for another wave of whips and police state civic instead of rep...)

    some want machinery and draft maces (machinery blocks bulbing of lib btw and we lose bureau)

    I feel we have to streamline gamplay a bit.

    Once currency and CoL is in, you can usually switch into "ICS mode", but you usually want good military unit before since absorbing first wave of cities (6-7 from spaniards?) will tank our economy, once we break cca 20 cities count you can set like half of them on building wealth and try to stay afloat with conquest gold etc.

    Ultimately we want State Property as our main civic, maybe we should look how to get there....

    It's emperor on torroidal, maintenance will tank us... it's not like we can't get out of tech holes, but the question is at what point we can start digging them compared to our potential enemies... (RB mostly)

    another point... if we plan to tank economy, no hurry for OU since best effect of OU is when you can run 100% slider and that you can't do with tanking economy. Actually it's proven that building OU usually slows your windate on Emperor difficulty against AI's.

    Obviously in MP the OU can pay for themself since I think you usually don't finish on ren era units, but more lategame, but it's worth mentioning...
     
  7. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Hey, vranasm! Its great to see you back. Hope your computer is fixed already.

    Yes, a lot of conflicting (or just competing) ideas lately.

    OU is long long shot really.

    Philo we can bulb and benefit out of it without going Edu any soon. Philo is needed for Pacifism and as prerequisite for Nationalism.

    Forges are expensive, but with the case of Taj, it pays itself.

    Conquering Spaniards I think we have almost full consensus about, we just need to figure out how and when :) Having double land will repay us well in the long run. Land is power. In MP it is rare a good thing to stay small on purpose to be able to tech to some crucial military advantage as Cuirrassers or rifles. They die to dedicated defender with maces/muskets just as easily after 20-30 catapults as anything else.

    Lib looks impossible for us at the moment anyway. I dont think we discussed it any time soon. We are just hoping that Apolyton can take it and not RB. Nationalism indeed conflicts with Bureaucracy, but well, this is for 5 turns only. We are SPI and we will get out of it after we draft some. Also, when we will be ready to start drafting, we will have all the techs we would want in a while.

    Something like infinite city spawn will indeed be the case when we go after Spaniards. We will capture 7-8 cities and we will free/control land to settle another maybe 10. With our existing 12 will make for something like 30 cities.

    SP along with all the espionage-boosting buildings which Communism gives are in my mind for quite a time already. It will be killer combo with our hopefully vast till then empire.

    As for maintenance and tech holes, yes, it will hit us, no doubt about it, but I think it is way better to take the hit now and then continue ahead. Also, we do fear the maintenance by default, but I see that RB have more cities than us and I dont see them having big issues with lacking economy. We need to test that, but I believe that we will hit the conrueror's plateau around 30-35 cities on this map and we might find ourselves not really far away from that number when we stop warring :)
     
  8. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    btw, if I update the sandbox, would you play it for the next 25-30 turns?
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    well my mood for games is still a bit low since my absence is kinda tied to relationships problems and not HW problems.

    I have to ask what you want to simulate... I doubt you can simulate competent (aka MP level) defense of AI... so we for sure can't find out if it is better to hunt conquest gold to steam research right now since we won't know how many units we will lose in the process.

    I still am not sold on the whole Philo->Nat especially if you want to give Lib to another team. nationalism is very expensive tech (something like 3k beakers if I remember right) and it's big jump to other options we have now (machinery, philo, even guilds/banks line)

    actually it can be possible that going guilds/banks can be better especially if we want to tank our economy through Knights :p

    Banks are usually overlooked since they are not on good tech path in SP, but I saw them used in couple of AW games and I have to say... well we should not overlook their impact on large empires.

    We can run for couple of turns Mercantilism together with Rep should be good oomph.

    I am not sold on the whole Edu line especially if we don't want to tech Lib, mostly because even in SP games it's good lane only because you can trade back with it a lot.

    In NTT game I have my doubts about the use of Edu line...
     
  10. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    I might give it a try and see what I can get for the path that I think we should take. But where is the sandbox?
     
  11. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    :) The sandbox needs to be updated for the next 30 turns, as it was when we last needed it. Can you do this for us, CH?
     
  12. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    I can give it a try.
     
  13. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2003
    Messages:
    265
    Location:
    Norway
    Sorry about the TheFastWorker glitch, guys. Been absent for a wile and it slipped by me. Got it back online and fixed the sorting on the tfw site as well. It won't go down again.

    Been reading up on the threads, been a while. Nice play so far. Impressed by the diplo game, and it's promising that we're cozying up to Apy. Gonna take something special to beat RB, god damn.

    As far as gameplay is concerned I'm not really in a position to add something really valuable at this point, but good points by Vranasm.. If we manage to get big and get to SP at the same time, it might give us the edge in the late game..? Would be good to get them spanish cities while they're.. well, up for grabs in a way, but with this variant and maintenance.. This will be interesting.
     
  14. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Sandbox up to t90 I believe. We will need our territory and surrounding and the Spanish cities replicated. Dont bother with the other nations.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    We have 5 hours to decide where we go. If we cant get some really compelling arguments for going Nationalism first, I think the safest way is to go MC->Machinery and then decide what to do. We might need Maces way before we are ready to attack if the Spaniards decide to attack us in attempt to hurt us. Not that it is really likely scenario, but the possibility stays - we have nearly equal armies and they seems to continue to produce army as we saw this new axe in their southern city.

    If we go MC->Machinery I would like to hear strategy about our MM and civics. To me it sounds like most sound way to get out of Caste, so we can whip things, but leave REP as we will still run at least 4 specialists - 2 in Indira and 2 in mantra to slow work towards GSs. Or we go full cottages/food mode and switch to HR/Bureau/ to let Indira works max tiles and grow to work even more tiles with Bureau.
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Well, well, well. With under 1 hour on the clock, being at the office, without clear preference from the team mebers who gave opinion and after spending the morning in heavy doubts, I made the following decision as the current turnplayer and team captain:

    I revolted from Barbarism to Bureaucracy and to Paganism from Organized Religion and had set our whole empire on maximum gold and beakers. We have some whooping ~500 GNP at the moment and we still have number 2 food. This supreme effort will give us Alphabet in 2, Metal Casting at the fourth, GS for bulbing Phiposophy in 5 or 6 and Nationalism in another 12-13 turns. Bureaucracy is clear why, where Paganism will save us 8 gpt and as we are mostly building wealth, we lose only 3 hammers per turn and we have our missioners on hold (one note - I think we must be careful not to remove those from the queue to not lose the hammers already invested).

    We need to calculate are we able to build Taj in the remaining 7-8 turns from turn 133 to t140 (t140 is the latest date we must give RB Marble to fit 10 turns in the window t120-t150) or we must make effort and give RB the Marble now in 3 turns (from t124 to t134) when we can earliest settle our Marble and also, t133-t134 will be the date we will get nationalism to start Taj Mahal.
     
  17. whb

    whb King

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Messages:
    702
    I notice machinery doesn't appear in the new plan. Did a "really compelling argument" arrive in another thread (I've mostly just been following this one)?

    New plan looks interesting. Alphabet in 2 sounds good (visibility on others' tech progress).

    But I have to admit some concerns about us putting off the Spanish invasion further and further -- it looks like we're now not planning to invade Spain until (guessing from the quote above) around turn 145? Here's the concerns:

    1. We shortened the NAP with RB to turn 170. That effectively means they are contingency planning a war with us at turn 170 when our army will be recovering on a mound of dead Spaniards far in the other direction. I think we may be getting in serious danger of putting off the war until a time when we will not be able to wage it for fear of RB dogpiling our other border before we're done and recovered.

    2. Spain's other neighbours are also out-teching them, and know darn well that most of Spain's army is at our end of the country. They might not wait so long to gobble up some Spanish low hanging fruit.

    3. It feels a bit rude that the rest of the game are having to put up with a split timer for a war that isn't happening.

    But then I'll happily admit I don't micromanage my games -- and usually build buildings rather than wealth and whipping (just seems less fun in single player) -- so there are many wiser and more optimising voices on this board than mine.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Thanks for commenting, whb, my reply/comments come in no time.
     
  19. whb

    whb King

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Messages:
    702
    Cheers. (And I don't mean to sound too critical -- just an unfortunate aspect of my writing style -- really a big fan of the great job you've been doing)
     
  20. dratboy

    dratboy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Fredericton, Canada
    Can't wait for alphabet. morbidly curious to see RB's tech level.
     

Share This Page