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Turn 150 - Your game is crap

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by orgonebox, May 29, 2009.

  1. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    158
    Sometimes this game seems broken.

    Usually by turn 150, I can tell whether my game is going to be playable and enjoyable, or is simply going to turn to crap.

    In my most recent game, which has seriously put me off civ for quite a while, Rhoanna had declared war on me by turn 100 - no big deal, apparently she didn't even have horseback riding or copper. By turn 150, she has ten cities and stacks of horse archers. I'm struggling against her and the barbs to hold on to three cities. Meanwhile the rest of the landscape is filling up with barb cities which Rhoanna can conquer and hold with just one horse archer.

    Why bother playing anymore. This is only one example - nine out of ten games turn out like this. There is absolutely no point.
     
  2. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    3,668
    A tip... have you tried playing at a lower dificaulty level?
    Also, what setings are you runing the game at?
     
  3. sputnik323

    sputnik323 Magelord

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    394
    Its a strategy game mixed with luck. Sometimes luck wins over the best strategy. Messing with different game options (like tech trading) or difficulty levels can really affect the way the game runs. As well, getting some modmods like FF or Orbi changes a lot too.
     
  4. psychoak

    psychoak Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    159
    This is definitely a case of "Your playing is crap" instead. It's much more combat focused than Vanilla.

    If you've got 3 good cities, you should be set for anything but deity difficulty or a really big map with no one on it. If you can't handle horse archers at turn 150, you need to rethink your strategy. Even at Monarch, that's well within bronze weapons reach, they're only 6 strength, and they don't get any defensive bonuses. Bronze weapon axemen are more than adequate for the task of defending.

    If you're playing on empty maps with nothing but barbs, letting your opponent kill all the barbs and have massive experience units, you deserve to loose even with comparable units. I don't like spacious maps myself, but when playing on them you have to be aggressive from the start and steamroll the barbs for xp yourself.
     
  5. Anathema

    Anathema Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    Messages:
    67
    In general - yeah, there is a lot of luck involved in this game, both Civ4 in general and FFH specifically. You can mitigate this a bit by choosing your starting settings carefully - do "custom game" if you're not already, try different options, you can tone down barbarians or beef them up, choose which enemies you'll get, change how densely populated the world is (i.e. using other than the default number of civs for a particular map size), etc. Even so you'll get terrible starts where you just have to start over, but with the right settings this should happen 1 or 2 out of 10 games rather than 9/10.

    Specifically - the AI is uncannily good with Hippus. Or perhaps it's just terrible with every other civ, depending on how you want to look at it. This gets more and more noticeable as the difficulty goes up - on deity any AI can field a massive stack of doom, but there's an incredible difference between a speed 1 axeman stack of doom, and a speed FIVE horseman stack of doom with the Hippus world spell, it's unstoppable. You can't predict them, they move faster in your territory than your defensive units on roads, they can pillage anywhere and hit any city. You send everything you have to one city hoping to survive the stack of doom, too bad - they ride past it and hit your capital or just pillage you into the stone age. If this is challenging for a player, you can imagine how easily the Hippus AI steamrolls the other AIs and barbarians. For these reasons I never play against Hippus (there's an option in Fall Further to block certain civs from being chosen randomly for the AI). It's not just that Hippus is difficult for the player, it's that they'll wipe out most of the other AIs while they're at it, I don't start a game with 8 random civs in order to 1v1 the Hippus.
     
  6. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,173
    The Hippus do generally seem to dominate don't they? I would say they become a major power in 70% of my games. In my most recent one however, they were vassalized by the Lanun. Personally I think it's a problem with the AI personalities. A lot of work has gone into making each civilization unique with certain preferences, and those preferences leads to a select few civilizations dominating, mainly the Illians, Hippus, Lanun(when led by Hannah), and occasionally the Doviello and Calabim. The rapid conquest expansion of these civilizations is unmatchable by the peacemongers. Not saying the war-prone need ot be nerfed, but rather the peacable ones need some perk or benefit to not going to war.

    These same personalities leads to religious problems as well. Some leaders rush to get religions(Some Elves and Dwarves with Fellowship and Runes respectively), while others don't seem care at all, they rarely found religions, and when they do it's often to late to be of use. I think as soon as a religious technology becomes available, the civilization should research it(I.E., if a civilization - any civilization, has Trade and Way of the Wise/Wicked, they should research Honor/Deception, even if they're not Malakim/Svartalfar)
     
  7. Lord Alvon

    Lord Alvon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    The Kryptian Empire
    When I've seen the Hippus in games, they either really pwn or really suck. In one game, they bankrupted themselves near the start. It was pretty sad.

    However, in another, their empire got so big that they surpassed my "slow and steady wins the race" strategy. If you can hold on to a large empire and maintain your economy early in the game, you are a lot more likely to win. Making a holy city helps with this.
     
  8. Skyre Noktis

    Skyre Noktis Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    The problem is that they rarely get the prerequisite techs early unless you place a high value on the religious tech. Otherwise, you're waiting for someone to research Trade and Way of the Wise/Wicked for some other reason, by which time it could be quite late in the game.
     
  9. Colbert30

    Colbert30 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Too bad you are so frustrated. Probably won't care much about what we say, but then again, you came here and posted so maybe that's what you're looking for. So, for what it's worth...

    Being the noob I am, I can't give you specific strats like the rest did. But I'll give you my phylosopy about my games instead, in general. When I play a game (singleplayer, of course), I become god for its world. I shape it and am in its control to make it pleasant for me. Sometimes I put myself against impossible odds or sometimes I just feel like relaxing. But it's me who's defining these things. Don't be afraid to adjust the game to fit your mood. And even if things get too ugly and don't feel like abandoning it, don't be afraid of opening the worldbuilder or reloading or even cheating a bit if that's what it takes to make the game enjoyable again.

    Just remember that the time you spend playing games is entertainment time. If it's not entertaining, then it's probably not worth it.
     
  10. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    This.

    It's a game. have fun.

    Sometimes, if the AI beats me to a wonder I really want, I reload the previous turn, then open worldbuilder and nuke the city they were building it in.

    Once, I built a wall of fallout, because I got annoyed at hippus raiders constantly breaking things.

    I'll occasionally delete an annoying mountain that mars the prosperity of a city, or blocks me in an annoying way.

    And frequently, when I found a religion, I move the holy city to where I want it, not where the computer randomly decides.

    I'm also rather fond of reloading when a civ dies, and dropping 10 Held crossbowmen into their capital, to keep them alive. And I'll sometimes delete an inconvenient str32 ira when playing FF


    Of course, responding to challenges is half the fun of the game. But when "challenge" becomes "problem", just do what it takes to make the game fun again. Take a tech away from your enemy, give yourself one. Or perhaps go through someone's empire and delete all their units. Stops attacks for a while.
     
  11. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,580
    Location:
    Torino - Italia
    the mod is still unbalanced under many aspects, and some games and in particular some settings cna be even more unbalancing. You should try different settings (I'm talking of map settings also) and just realize that sometimes... you can loose :D
     
  12. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,580
    Location:
    Torino - Italia
    actually it isn't that random :rolleyes:
     
  13. Dominicius

    Dominicius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    67
    Yea the comp specificaly pics the most crappy city you own fot it. :p
     
  14. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,173
    Too true. I find that 80% of the time my holycity goes in my second-founded city(unless it already has a religion for some reason), so I generally aim to make that city my gold city.
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,189
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Here is the religion founding code. (It is from an older version of FF, but apart from the dynamic unique units part I don't think it different from the current FfH code.)
    Code:
    
    
    void CvPlayer::foundReligion(ReligionTypes eReligion, ReligionTypes eSlotReligion, bool bAward)
    {
    	CvCity* pLoopCity;
    	CvCity* pBestCity;
    	UnitTypes eFreeUnit;
    	bool bStarting;
    	int iValue;
    	int iBestValue;
    	int iLoop;
    
    	if (NO_RELIGION == eReligion)
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    //FfH: Added by Kael 10/29/2007
        if (eReligion == 0)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_0))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 1)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_1))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 2)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_2))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 3)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_3))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 4)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_4))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 5)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_5))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
        if (eReligion == 6)
    	{
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_RELIGION_6))
    	    {
    	        return;
    	    }
    	}
    //FfH: End Add
    
    	if (GC.getGameINLINE().isReligionFounded(eReligion))
    	{
    		if (isHuman())
    		{
    			CvPopupInfo* pInfo = new CvPopupInfo(BUTTONPOPUP_FOUND_RELIGION, eSlotReligion);
    			if (NULL != pInfo)
    			{
    				gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addPopup(pInfo, getID());
    			}
    		}
    		else
    		{
    			foundReligion(AI_chooseReligion(), eSlotReligion, bAward);
    		}
    
    		return;
    	}
    
    	GC.getGameINLINE().setReligionSlotTaken(eSlotReligion, true);
    
    	bStarting = ((GC.getReligionInfo(eSlotReligion).getTechPrereq() == NO_TECH) || (GC.getTechInfo((TechTypes) GC.getReligionInfo(eSlotReligion).getTechPrereq()).getEra() < GC.getGameINLINE().getStartEra()));
    
    	iBestValue = 0;
    	pBestCity = NULL;
    
    	for (pLoopCity = firstCity(&iLoop); pLoopCity != NULL; pLoopCity = nextCity(&iLoop))
    	{
    		if (!bStarting || !(pLoopCity->isHolyCity()))
    		{
    			iValue = 10;
    			iValue += pLoopCity->getPopulation();
    			iValue += GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(GC.getDefineINT("FOUND_RELIGION_CITY_RAND"), "Found Religion");
    
    			iValue /= (pLoopCity->getReligionCount() + 1);
    
    		[B]	if (pLoopCity->isCapital())
    			{
    				iValue /= 8;
    			}[/B]
    
    //FfH: Added by Kael 11/18/2007
    			if (pLoopCity->isSettlement())
    			{
    				iValue /= 8;
    			}
    //FfH: End Add
    
    			iValue = std::max(1, iValue);
    
    			if (iValue > iBestValue)
    			{
    				iBestValue = iValue;
    				pBestCity = pLoopCity;
    			}
    		}
    	}
    
    	if (pBestCity != NULL)
    	{
    		GC.getGameINLINE().setHolyCity(eReligion, pBestCity, true);
    
    		if (bAward)
    		{
    			if (GC.getReligionInfo(eSlotReligion).getNumFreeUnits() > 0)
    			{
    /*************************************************************************************************/
    /**	Dynamic Unique Units			03/11/08			Written: DomPedroII	Imported: Xienwolf	**/
    /**																								**/
    /**							Function now called to Player, not Civ								**/
    /*************************************************************************************************/
    /**								---- Start Original Code ----
    				eFreeUnit = ((UnitTypes)(GC.getCivilizationInfo(getCivilizationType()).getCivilizationUnits(GC.getReligionInfo(eReligion).getFreeUnitClass())));
    								----  End Original Code  ----									**/
    				eFreeUnit = ((UnitTypes)(getUniqueUnits((UnitClassTypes)GC.getReligionInfo(eReligion).getFreeUnitClass())));
    /*************************************************************************************************/
    /**	Dynamic Unique Units						END												**/
    /*************************************************************************************************/
    
    				if (eFreeUnit != NO_UNIT)
    				{
    					for (int i = 0; i < GC.getReligionInfo(eSlotReligion).getNumFreeUnits(); ++i)
    					{
    						initUnit(eFreeUnit, pBestCity->getX_INLINE(), pBestCity->getY_INLINE());
    					}
    				}
    			}
    		}
    	}
    }

    I think I may remove the bold part in my version (eventually, if I have to compile my own DLL to get something else I really want anyway), or maybe just change the iValue /= 8; to something more reasonable like iValue /= 2;. I may even decide to get fancy and make certain religions have different effects on the likelihood of founding different religions in the city. For example, the presence of The Order may make it harder for new religions to get started. I could also try to make different religions have preferences for different things, like making OO much more likely in coastal cities and AV more likely in science cities.
     
  16. Webrider

    Webrider Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    322
    The game would be crap if you could win every game.
     
  17. Webrider

    Webrider Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    322
    And btw while i'm in a good mood STFU if you want to use inflamatory language, go make a mod of this depth yourself and see how much work goes into it before you call someone's work crap.
    I just play mods here on this site I would never have the time to begin to make one. If you don't enjoy a mod pick another one or go back to BTS, but demeaning someone else's work is typical spoiled brat. And I'm in a good mood.
     
  18. dyx

    dyx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    87
    No, the game wouldn't be crap if you would win every game. It would be crap for you, because of the way you play and the way you have fun.
    But it wouldn't be crap for me, because I like building and the whole civilization thing. My games take days, because I play on marathon to enjoy the building up more. There are probably quite some things which add fun for you, but are just plain annoying for me, and simply nothing else.

    Regarding the topic, it's not really about the game. 50 turns on normal speed is not very short and the AI has certain points where it settles a lot. When Rhoanna declared war on you, she probably had some Settlers ready or was building them and afterwards she discovered horseback riding. She's also expansive, meaning +50% Settler production.
    Taking the Hippus, even Rhoanna, for no big deal and wondering afterwards is more like a misjudgement.
     
  19. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,508
    Location:
    Anvilania
    Jesus guys, All the dude did was complain about how the game whomps him 9 out of 10 times. The flaming in this thread ignores the title "150 turns your game is crap". Perhaps he is being clever and implying the game is crap but I doubt it. After all a clever person would have said the mod of this game is crap. Stop wasting energy on this thread and get back to playing the game dammit.
     
  20. Honor

    Honor Immortal

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Celo
    Religions, if I can found any, usually get founded in my capital city because I refuse to found any cities other than my capital (the Sidar are cool that way) :)
     

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