Turn 51-100

[2metraninja]

Well, maybe the civ.de forum is for Germans speakers and the Austrians play there, as they most probably dont have a civ.at site

 

[Aivoturso]

Very interesting stuff in here. We can confirm that UCiv has indeed met another team, and it is the Germans! Either the Germans have another a scout they sent past WPC to meet UCiv, or they met from the other side of the world wrap.

Another interesting tid bit is that poor Spanish are all alone. They've not met anyone but us from the teams we know. If our guess about the general layout of the world is correct, it is quite possible that they have not met anyone else at all.

Here are some more pictures. This one shows UCiv's Warrior and the German Quechua at our borders. The black dots are tiles that would give them visibility into one of our cities.

It could be that I'm just not that experienced with multiplayer, but I don't see why it is so important to know whether a team gets to see our city or not. Way before they will get city visibility from Espionage, they can scout out all our cities with Spies easily. Only other reason I can think of is military espionage. But even for that, it should be sufficient to know where the borders are.

 

[YossarianLives]

Another interesting tid bit is that poor Spanish are all alone. They've not met anyone but us from the teams we know. If our guess about the general layout of the world is correct, it is quite possible that they have not met anyone else at all.

The Spaniards did tell us they have met the Mayans (Civfr) and the English (I think they mean Poly, Lizzy of the Ottomans). RB told us that the Germans have also met Poly, and that Poly is "west" of the Germans.

It could be that I'm just not that experienced with multiplayer, but I don't see why it is so important to know whether a team gets to see our city or not. Way before they will get city visibility from Espionage, they can scout out all our cities with Spies easily. Only other reason I can think of is military espionage. But even for that, it should be sufficient to know where the borders are.

It's definitely not a gamebreaking advantage, but it lets them keep track of all the buildings in a city, as well as its size, for the rest of the game. Sure they can use a spy later to get vision, but this would be very expensive for them so they may never get around to it.

BTW, Uciv did move their warrior away, but could move in position to see Daiva next turn. Also, we need to figure out how to direct the Germans around us. Either north or south will send them into unprotected Terrain where barbs have been abundant.

 

[2metraninja]

There are many reasons why it is good for them and bad for us they to see our cities. First they will know how big our cities are and they will be able to see if there is a wall built at some point, if there is a marker, library or whatever building. Also if we build a World Wonder there, the game will tell them where and who exactly built that wonder instead of "Somewhere Xxxxx was built". Also even if they have espionage city/build visibility on us, if they never actually saw the city tile itself, they cant see a thing. I had sweet story about how I built Kremlin in one game.

Spoiler :

MZprox was spying on me (and many others in this regard) and was building The Kremlin, but I was also building it, but I found a city especially to build The Cremlin. It was in very forested corner of my empire, but because he had never saw this city (traded maps also count for that) he was unable to see me building the wonder. We was even online at the same time and we had a chat and he said like: "Hmm, I was expecting you to build Kremlin, but you are not." and I: "Oh, am I not, how do you know?" he:" I spent some money to gain visibility on your builds to know what you are doing and slave Kremlin if need be, but you decided to not build it" to which I just laughed my a$$ off in fron of my monitor but to him I said only: "Clever". In two turns I finished the Kremlin and he was so mad, that declared me a war. Which was only a gesture of rage, as we had no common border at all

So those are some of the consideration why they must not see our cities. But it is not much we can do once we open borders to even one team and allow trespassing. Then they can trade maps with whoever they want and we cant control that and even wont know about it.

 

[2metraninja]

Gents, we have 2 barbs to tackle and 2 workers to find a job for.

Spoiler :

[/IMG]

 

[talonschild]

Well, yeah, kill the wheat farm one first and the cow one next turn.

No idea on workers

 

[cav scout]

Well, yeah, kill the wheat farm one first and the cow one next turn.

And don't forget to turn the wheat back on after killing off that barb.

 

[YossarianLives]

Gents, we have 2 barbs to tackle and 2 workers to find a job for.

Spoiler :

[/IMG]

Yeah, we should definitely use the plan you outlined to dispose of the barbs.

As for what to do with the workers, we're going to be whipping a Settler out of Terasvin this turn so any workers without something to do should be roading towards the new city location. I actually think the Corn city located on the tile indicated in the lower right corner of your screenshot would make a good next city.

 

[2metraninja]

Hmm, are we gonna whip this settler for sure? It is 3 turns from finishing right now... And do we hurry to settle new cities?

As for city location I would say your proposed city in the north I find as better spot for this moment. We get horses, better cottageable land (flood plains) and expand in to disputed territory, while the down-right corner corn in in our sphere of influence without any doubt.

 

[talonschild]

Yes, the only real advantage I see in the city Yossarian mentioned is that it'll keep Distance Maintenance costs slightly lower.

 

[YossarianLives]

Some pictures from T71:

Our Axe defeated the first barb without a scratch!

Spoiler :

UCiv has moved their Warrior back to our borders.

Spoiler :

It now has sight into our undefended city of Daivagati. 2Metra switched our build there to an Axe. I'm assuming this is so that it can be 1-pop whipped if UCiv decides to play really dirty and break their NAP with us to DOW and take a shot at the city. This shouldn't mess with our micro too much, but this is just one more reason that we should hold UCiv to the same standards they imposed on us when we were at their borders.

Hoffman Helm, the German Quechua at our border, has started moving south.

Spoiler :

Spaniards have discovered Writing, should we propose Open Borders?

Spoiler :

They got 19 points this turn, so Writing maybe accounts for 6 of those? If not, then they got Writing with their T64 Tech, and we weren't paying close enough attention. If that's the case, then maybe they completed a Classical Era tech for 12 points? There were actually 3 teams that got very large score increases this turn (Spaniards +19, RB +17, Poly +16), so there might have been several Classical techs researched this turn...

 

[2metraninja]

(I am talking about Uciv with their warrior staying next to unprotected Daivagati)

Those guys are starting to irritate me. If it was some guys, who I know and have played with and know they will stick to their word, that would have been different. But their warrior standing 1 tile from our unprotected city just like that is starting to make me nervous. They dont say anything and just stay there. Yossa said they dont mess with our micro, but they actually do. We are building an axe instead of a Granary! I am not 100% sure how it works - do build order is processed first and then growth, but we were going to build a granary the same turn we grow and I believe we would have had half full basket after growing to size3. Now we lost 2 turns of being size3 instead of size2 and maybe additional 13 food in the basket! Because of their silence!

Is it possible that this bunch of non famous on the MP scene guys actually decide they have no name and reputation to lose anyway and see attacking and capturing our undefended city breaking our NAP as good opportunity? Now we must play after them, waiting for the end of the turn to be sure they wont declare war and move in our territory after we finish turn, taking the second turn order, thus denying us the opportunity to react whipping defender. Or we outright whip the damned axe now and just forget about them? Another possibility is we move a warrior from Lana towards Mantra (3 roaded tiles, so he wont arrive this turn and when we move the warrior that garrisons Mantra towards Daiva, Mantra will lose one turn of working 4h plain mine. However, we will have defender(warrior, but still good enough I guess) in Daiva next turn without us whipping the 1f5h copper mine working citizen.

 

[vranasm]

actually best time for finishing granary is when you have half food bar...there was some article like year ago by vicawoo how to best build granary.

if you finish granary the same time you grow you DON'T get the half food bar... thus you want to finish when you are already at 1/2 food bar since then you don't lose any food.

I am usually too lazy to count it to last food, but if I approach to ~50% of food bar I try to have whip ready.

 

[vranasm]

just to add something...sometimes you sync granary and growth, usually to size 4, because size 4 is the magical point which opens 2-pop whips and you want to get them asap.
you will lose some food, but reaching size 4 for 2-pop whip is sometimes more important especially if you already passed through the 2-pop whip point for granary with too many hammers invested.

 

[2metraninja]

Actually, I knew this thing with the half-full granary, but never knew the mechanics which stay behind it. Here is a good explanation from Tachywaxon:

So, first, the granary works like that:
Once the granary is available in a city, food rate will not only put food into growth bar, but also in the granary. So, if +5 per turn, then after 1 turn, you get +5 in the food bar and +5 in the granary. The idea of finishing a granary about mid-threshold of growth is coming from the fact completing the half food bar equals to the max a granary can hold.

Also consider the fact that food coming before hammers mean the in-between turn after granary completion will not stock food in granary. The stocking starts in the next end of turn.

If you finish a granary at the same moment as growth, you get nothing in the granary due to that offset created from output priority order.
But if you get the granary a turn before growth, what you might do is to use high food tiles to make up a bit as food stocking+food in food bar are compiled BEFORE the growth.

 

[classical_hero]

There are many reasons why it is good for them and bad for us they to see our cities. First they will know how big our cities are and they will be able to see if there is a wall built at some point, if there is a marker, library or whatever building. Also if we build a World Wonder there, the game will tell them where and who exactly built that wonder instead of "Somewhere Xxxxx was built". Also even if they have espionage city/build visibility on us, if they never actually saw the city tile itself, they cant see a thing. I had sweet story about how I built Kremlin in one game.

Spoiler :

MZprox was spying on me (and many others in this regard) and was building The Kremlin, but I was also building it, but I found a city especially to build The Cremlin. It was in very forested corner of my empire, but because he had never saw this city (traded maps also count for that) he was unable to see me building the wonder. We was even online at the same time and we had a chat and he said like: "Hmm, I was expecting you to build Kremlin, but you are not." and I: "Oh, am I not, how do you know?" he:" I spent some money to gain visibility on your builds to know what you are doing and slave Kremlin if need be, but you decided to not build it" to which I just laughed my a$$ off in fron of my monitor but to him I said only: "Clever". In two turns I finished the Kremlin and he was so mad, that declared me a war. Which was only a gesture of rage, as we had no common border at all

So those are some of the consideration why they must not see our cities. But it is not much we can do once we open borders to even one team and allow trespassing. Then they can trade maps with whoever they want and we cant control that and even wont know about it.

That is rather pointless since we have a full open borders with a team, so they have the right to enter our territory and see it. So if you were worried about other teams seeing into our territory, then a full open border treaty would not have been allowed.

 

[Aivoturso]

How much will we lose micro by just whipping the axe? I would rather play it safe than take any unnecessary risks.

In general I believe any sane player would not blow their diplo out the window this early in the game in hopes that we won't have a nearby or a whippable soldier available. Though, we probably won't play with many of these guys ever again, at this stage of a game that will still go on at least a year. And if they attack we will tell the world of their treachery. But still, I would be much more comfortable if we'd whip the axe.

 

[2metraninja]

I was just pointing out why one could want someone not to see his cities. Of course if we are proposing OB to someone, then those considerations seems minor for us.

 

[Calis]

Can't we send a warrior from another town to Daivagati? Or would he arrive too late? Lana is to the east, right?

EDIT: It's mantra. And 2metra also mentioned it in another thread.

 

[talonschild]

Mantra is closer.