Turn discussion 171-200

[2metraninja]

Time for new thread and time for making some general decissions on which our short and mid-term actions will be affected greatly.

We have to vote the general course in our actions - is it putting all our efforts - swithc civics, drafting, slaving, diplo coordinating, etc in try to capture MHI the earliest, or we to emphasize on making our economics competitive - switching civics, cotteaging farms, etc and just then smashing MHI with infantry/fighters/marines/tanks.

 

[nabaxo]

Can we get a screen-shot update to use for the discussion?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Time for new thread and time for making some general decissions on which our short and mid-term actions will be affected greatly.

We have to vote the general course in our actions - is it putting all our efforts - swithc civics, drafting, slaving, diplo coordinating, etc in try to capture MHI the earliest, or we to emphasize on making our economics competitive - switching civics, cotteaging farms, etc and just then smashing MHI with infantry/fighters/marines/tanks.

General you are wise... I agree, we must immediately decide.

Let's decide whether we continue to drive Merlot to STRIKE, hopefully killing off dozens of their units, and then invade,... or

Abandon our espionage efforts and focus fully instead on invasion agaist their full force with our superior tech...

We already have capability of making/upgrading superior units... We will also get an upgrade of many units from the great merchant... so the only real issue is whether we try to reduce their huge MHI garrison by forcing them to STRIKE before attacking... or if we cut off our espionage, and instead try to defeat them with overwhelming arms.

I think they will STRIKE in 3 turns and lose at least 20-30 units, if we continue espionage, so I favor continuing espionage... What do you favor General?

 

[damnrunner]

I would favor earlier action. Tanks and marines are still a ways off and who knows what the ETTT will look like at that point.

My only concern would be are we positive about how the Merlot unit strike will work out? I had thought that when on strike they would lose one unit per turn, but sommer's post seems to indicate they lose them all at once. Either way it is helpful, but if it is per turn we will need to keep up the espionage longer.

As to our invasion force. Doing it in waves can make a lot of sense. I think a mini stack of 5 rifles with 2 cavalry to start. Merlot certainly could kill this stack, but doing so would require them to sacrifice a good portion of their cataputls and units which they would then not be able to use on our main invasion force. These rifles should be drill (upgraded xbows/LBs) or woodsman III promoted if possible to maximize 1st strike potential on sacrificial cataputls. If they don't attack we can use cavalry to attack and inflict flanking damage on their catapults. Either way we can start to put a big dent in their siege units.

Also how soon until we have airships, those could come in handy I imagine. Is anyone in the ETTT going for Physics?

 

[Sommerswerd]

We get a Great Spy in 6 turns. Since there probably isnt anyone we want to Spybomb right now, I recommend we either settle the G.Spy in Themiscyra, which will add roughly 30 to our base espy, or Found another Scotland Yard in Sangre (adding about 33), and make that our second espionage city. As a production/farming city, Sangre has better specialist potential than Themiscyra. I set it to run 3 spies as we just finished a jail there, and the city is still growing. Themiscyra is barely growing now, and cannot support any more specialists.

Even running 3 spies, if Sangre is Working all of its farms, it should still be able to end up with like a 6 surplus, which will allow it to work all its mines as well, and still have enough to run 1 more spy (we would need to build a security bureau).

Running 3 spies, the city makes about 33 So if we put another Scotland Yard there, we get +70. Either way, we will have a base espy of about 150-160 points, with the slider at 0% (by way of comparison, we get 144 points a turn now running the slider at 10%... 88 points at 0%), assuming we keep running spies everywhere that we are currently running them. With a base espy that high, we can prety much do whatever nasty tricks we want to whoever, whenever, steal, tech, change civics, steal money whatever... We will be very dangerous.

When Sistine finishes 6 turns, we can convert all the Comet cities to running a citizen specialist and building culture, which should overwhelm the Sirians culture quickly and give us control of the conflict-tiles. I sent the new settler on Comet to the spire with a Longbow escort the settler arrives at the settlement spot in 3 turns.

I queued up an Apothecary/Grocer (10 turns w/forge) in Myrine after the Forge finishes (3 turns). We need it for the +2, as the +1 from the forge will cause the city to be stagnant. A harbor would be faster (5 turns w/forge) and actually give +3 but we get +25% from the Apothecary which adds up to about 5 or 6 , whereas we would only get +4 from the +50% trade route bonus that a harbor gives... IDK, its a close call... Nevermind, I think a harbor is better, so Ill switch it back now. If anyone wants the Apothecary instead, speak up.

Otreta must have an Apothecary as it is currently stagnant and already has a harbour so I queued it up after Sistine. Also, I removed the Budhist temple from the queue in Myrine as the Forge will give +2 ending the disorder there. Plus I added Angkor Wat to the Queue, so if we get it, we wont need to go the temple route to get our Holy shrines... I keep forgetting we have two holy cities... Christianity and Islam... which we should start spreading BTW to get extra .

Speaking of Gold... Versailes finishes next turn, so we should be flush with new cash. After Vandal finishes Versailes, I queued up levies and then the Ironworks. I think it should go there as Vandal will easily be our highest production city. After we get the Ironworks, we can quickly build Wonders or whatever else we want there... Statue of Liberty might be a good gambit to pull if CDZ isnt already going for it... Another thing, Iron works allows you to run 3 Engineers... with the Forge that means we can run 4 engineers and maybe get a Great Engineer in time to snatch up Mining Inc. If we want to do this, we would be wise to claim Corporation as our next tech, and time the discovery to correspond with the turn our Engineer is born.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Oh, BTW... I forgot to report that Areto the Sandwalker was captured trying to switch Merlot back to Despotism. I moved 2 spies into the Merlot city so we get 2 tries, to try make sure this doesnt happen again ... We will run the mission again next turn... You dont lose spy points on an unsuccesful mission. Merlot is still losing 20 gpt even in HR, because they have little population to work the tiles. All their cities have been bombarded to very little defense, but we should have The Generals daughter swing arond to bombaard the others just in case the defense numbers are not showing. CDZ is still in place to invade the Baths which we bombarded down to 0%.

 

[nabaxo]

Any game where you intend of running the ESP slider, multiple Scotland Yards are in order.

 

[damnrunner]

@sommers - sounds like good game management. I had mentioned once before that we should build a monastery or two for producing missionaries. Adding those to a queue somewhere might be in order.

For the Great Spy - a 2nd Scotland yard sounds like the better option. Settling in Them is better in the short term - but for future conflict with Sirius we will have higher ESP potential building it elsewhere.

 

[2metraninja]

I will advocate a Golden Age for us. I think we are ok by outespionaging the crippled Mavs and Merlots, but if we try to do this with a finacial monster like Sirius, this is not gonna work at all, even with 2 Scotland Yards. And now when we are nearly broke the poor Merlots, do we need such costly investmeent in future espionage?

I would say let us have a GA, which will save us 2 or 3 turns in anarchy (we need Emantipation and Nationalism for sure + some other nice civics to be decided), give us immediate boost now when it seems we are racing to kill-off the Merlots at least in time with Sirius killing Mavs. Then we will have our army adequate some 10 turns earlier, we will have our economics better some 10 turns earlier, will conquer MHI some 10 turns earlier, will have our next GS some 10 turns earlier (Pacifism bonus + GA bonus + a lot of spies specialist during the Golden Age) to use him for whatever we may decide a bit later and so on... The snowball effect in its purest form.

I am proposing a vote for the whole team to say what to do with the incoming Great Spy.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Good idea. You should go ahead and post the poll. I think all the choices have been mentioned.

 

[2metraninja]

I am not sure how it works, but it seems it is time to find out

 

[2metraninja]

Well, I see that we lean to have Golden Age, only we have to see which GP we will use for it, but despite how we trigger it, here is what I think we must do with our GA once it is launched:

So for the record, I prefer we to launch our GA immediately with our Great Merchant for the purpose to be able to switch civics.

So the civics I would prefer we to switch to during the GA are:

Government:
- Universal suffrage for the added hammer to our towns on our Home Island

but if our Captain Agent "Shtirlitz" Sommerswerd says it is needed despotism for our espionage program against the Merlots, so be it.

Legal Civics:
- Bureaucracy for the increased output in the capitol
or
- Free Speech to boost our culture on Anjennida and Comet. Also to squeeze some more coins in our HI

Labor Civics:
- Caste System no doubt for the unlimited merchants

Economy Civics:
- Mercantilism for the free spcialist to help us get our GM in time

Religion Civics:
- Pacifism for the 100% bonus to GP production ( too sad we still dont have our National Epic built )


And the civics I think will be best to switch to near the end of our GA to prepare for the war are:

Government:
- Hereditary Rule
or
- Representation to ofset the unhappiness from drafting/slaving the army

Legal Civics:
- Nationhood for the drafting of huge army (this can be done either way BTW - we can switch to Nationhood during the GA, draft all the units we want and near the end of the GA we switch out of Nationhood to Bureaucracy or Free speach. This is even more logical, as we will need Bureaucracy for the long run, but we will lose production during the GA from drafted citizens )

Labor Civics:
- Slavery - obvious for slaving
or
- Emancipation to avoid the unhappiness penalty (we will have already unhappiness from the drafting) and try to improve our economics

Economy Civics:
- Free Market for the added trade route

Religion Civics:
- Free Religion for the happiness
or
- Organized Religion for the building bonus, as we will continue to build buildings (Theocracy I dont think we will need, as the drafted units get only the half experience they should get anyway, so 1 XP is not worth a whole civic. Also, Otreta built soldiers will have good ammount of XP already)

 

[Sommerswerd]

Areto Taker of Corn suceeded in putting Merlot back in Despotism where they belong , so all their cities are starving again (except the Castle) as they should be... but Areto the Revenge Taker was captured trying to poison "The Castle" to prevent it from growing in 2 turns. We get one more bite at the apple next turn with Areto the Alpha female who is already in place, If we can stopt them from growing, they wont be able to work any more Gems or Cottages.

I put our new Spy, "Areto Replacer of Lost" on the boat with the Merchant, the Merchant can start the GA from the boat apparently, and then the Boat can take Replacer to Marthaton to join in the espy fun

Merlot has desperately sent a worker to rebuild a corn tile alon on their West coast. I think losing an unpromoted Archer to kill their worker is a good trade, so I boarder Trudy Sureshot onto Nabaxicas pride, and then jumped her over onto Doris to get her in striking range... just remember that if they forget to defend the Worker that we must disband it, or it will surely be re-captured

 

[Sommerswerd]

We can see Quatronias flotilla heading back to their home island. It consists of 7 Galleons. If it was full that's 21 units. Assuming all of them survived the assault on InJiyja (unlikely) and its all the best defender, ie Rifles (also unlikely), they will still be hit this turn by Mavs 19 Catapult stack, probably destroyed, and the city re-captured.

The Mavs stack also has 2 Great Generals which can heal the stack, so I am guessing the Q are again doomed. It might be that Q dont have enough espionage to see Mavs units/cities. If this is the case, and they dont have actual spies on the island, then they may not be able to see the stack of Catapults that Mavs have in the center of the island... Frankly, IDK why we can see it, since it is not adjacent to any city, I guess they can see it too if we can

The good news for Sirius is that all Mavs catapults will be dead, and they will not have time to replace before Sirius invades and captures the whole island. So basically, Sirius seems to have fooled Q into sacrificing their whole Army, leaving themselves defensless and delivering Mavs home Island into Sirius hands, just before Sirius dumps them and delivers them into the hands of CDZ...

If this is what happens then Q are ultimate suckers.

 

[2metraninja]

Merlot has desperately sent a worker to rebuild a corn tile alon on their West coast. I think losing an unpromoted Archer to kill their worker is a good trade, so I boarder Trudy Sureshot onto Nabaxicas pride, and then jumped her over onto Doris to get her in striking range... just remember that if they forget to defend the Worker that we must disband it, or it will surely be re-captured

Good, good. That's what I am talking about! One worker less, much food less for the Merlots!

 

[2metraninja]

So, do I have your consent about starting the GA and switching civics?

We have 3 more hours on our part of the timer if we want to do it this turn.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I say yes. Go for it

 

[damnrunner]

Before we do the GA - if the plan is to get a second GM in what city do you plan to build it and can it be done in time? All that has been discussined is doing this in abstract and I have not seen any specifics. Where and on what turn do we get the GA?

Also with civics switching my understanding was that you still have the 5 turn wait period where you can't reswitch even when in GA. There is no anarchy in a GA, but you can't flip back and forth every turn.

Are we out of the 5 turn period from the last civics switch yet? Because if not we need to hold off.

 

[2metraninja]

if the plan is to get a second GM in what city do you plan to build it and can it be done in time?

Might be not exactly the very same turn as the GA ends, but I do hope we will have him somewhat in time - 2 turns after the end of the GA I can make a guess.

Also with civics switching my understanding was that you still have the 5 turn wait period where you can't reswitch even when in GA. There is no anarchy in a GA, but you can't flip back and forth every turn.

Absolute correct.

Are we out of the 5 turn period from the last civics switch yet?

And yes.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Before we do the GA - if the plan is to get a second GM in what city do you plan to build it and can it be done in time? All that has been discussined is doing this in abstract and I have not seen any specifics. Where and on what turn do we get the GA?

As 2metra answerd you other questions I will answer this one since it is related to the actions I took.

Looking at all our cities, I think Ephesus is the best candidate for the Great Merchant #1. I say #1 because through the awesomeness of Caste System + Large Cities + High Food Surpluses + Free Merchantilism specialist + Pacifism +100% points... We will inevitably get multiple Great people DURING the GA, and a maybe even a few quick ones soon after the Golden Age Ends.

OK so I saw that 2metra had not picked a city to Caste-Slave our Great Merchant so I chose a city with a High Food Surplus that had very little corruption in the pool. This was Ephesus. Ephesus has almost no stored and a full Granary, which means we can starve the city to the max working Merchants for 1 or 2 turns before we even lose 1 pop point. And becasue Ephesus has high production, it will recover quickly. I put ALL Ephesus population to Merchants. Doing this means we would get our Merchant in 3 turns, with the loss of 1 pop point.

The only Problem is that since we are in Pacifism, we get our Spy now in 2 turns, which will probably increase the time to the Merchant to 5 turns. If I could, I would just turn the spy off for a turn so we get the Merchant first, but I cant because of the forced free specialist from Mercantilism... changing it to a different type of specialist wont help... Unless I used a citizen (1, no) but that just seemed too wasteful.

Anyway Spy First, Merchant two turns later, then another Great Person probably another merchant, from Saber or Myrine just before the GA ends. Why Saber? Because I realized that Saber also has enough stored food to work a few Merchants, plus an Artist to push on the Sirius border a little. In Myrine there is alot of unhappiness, which will die off as we Caste-Slave a Merchant... also the Forge (2 turns) will stop some of the disorder. Anyway, All together, they both would get us another Great person in 7 turns, which will probably increase to 8-13 turns because of the other Great people births (cost goes up each time we get one).

Another wild card is Sangre, which is running 3 spies... So we could end up geting another Spy shortly after the GA ends... go figure. Anyway we need to figure out what we will do if we get a different G.Person by accident. Engineer is obvious, we get a nice Wonder... Merchant is obvious trade mission. Priest is obvious Holy Shrine, although I dont think we have any Priest points in the pool. But what if we get a Scientist or an Artist? I want to culture bomb Comet, but that would start trouble probably...

Speaking of which, I turned off all the forced Specialists that were Scientists. Scientist are pointless, because we and I think Sirius are not teching untill M&M are dead anyway. I changed them to Merchants, Engineers, or Artists... depending on where they were. For our border cities and Comet cities I made them Artists which will make the borders pop faster, and get us more tiles. I also did this for Euxine and Nabaxica. Nabaxica will pop soon, giving us access to a central tile where we can build a Canal and then move our boats in to the Waters of Q and Mavs, the way we can for CDZ and Merlot.