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Turn threads -- one or many?

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by DaveShack, Dec 8, 2008.

?

How do you want turn discussion threads

Poll closed Dec 10, 2008.
  1. One per turn

    58.3%
  2. One per sequence of turns

    41.7%
  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Simple question -- should we have a turn thread per turn, or one containing several turns? Lots of comments one way or the other, but no clear agreement...
     
  2. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    To clarify: this poll is only regarding the turn update posts, correct?
     
  3. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    So I understand it.
    For every other reason, anybody, who wants, should and can open a fred.
     
  4. Tinkerbell

    Tinkerbell Prince

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    How about a sub forum to 'store' the old turn threads?
     
  5. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Old threads don't go away, they just get pushed off of the front page, so there's no worry of that. Besides, there's really no reason for a sub-forum (not that we can have one, anyway!)

    This is why I think a couple dozen Turn Update threads that hold a block of turns (10 each?) is better than hundreds of individual thread. With hundreds of individual threads it is very difficult to find the screen shot that shows where Saturn's caravel was last month... so we won't be able to quickly know if they can see our new island outpost.... for example.

    But with every group of 10 turns held in a thread, we'd only have to scan through 2 threads, at most. Otherwise we'll have to hunt and peck through dozens of threads, just to find a single screenshot.

    And I know this sort of thing will come up. When it's tough to search through the game history to find a detail, it's much easier to just not worry about the detail. But that's not a smart way to play.
     
  6. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Also
    We 've the turn track in my opinion for the history, there sould be all the pictures best as thumbnails, so you can inspect if you want, and it doesn't need too much space. Perhaps Tinker can shift the pictures or Dave as Mod.

    btw
    I don't know, whether the forum leader like few threads with more posts better than more threads with few posts. Normally I don't look to the 2. or later page of threads.
    In GWT we 've our subforum in 2 years with ~230 turns ~40.000 posts in 440 threads, the "best poster" would have +100.000 posts in >1000 threads.
     
  7. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    There's no need for the Turn Track thread if we're also going to have a separate thread for Turn Updates. They serve the same purposed: Informing the team of what actions the turnplayer took, showing the team the current situation(s), and serving as a record in case we have to replay a turn, and most importantly, serving as a Historical Record so that we'll know exactly when certain actions happen.

    That can be important for when we need to keep track of things that have time limits and such.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    This is about turn discussion threads, where we discuss and decide what actions we'll make for each turn.
    • Starting screenshots
    • Discussion of what we do this turn
    • Decision of what to do this turn
    • Ending screenshots

    The record of what actions were taken during the turn is what I call a turn record, and there should be one of those for the entire game.

    Does anyone want to change their vote based on this?
     
  9. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Thanks for the clarification :hatsoff:

    My preference is for a discussion thread that covers a block of turns, and that's how I voted. In my ideal Discussion Thread people talk about specific actions to be taken by the turn player; short term goals for workers, city micromanagement targets, military operations against barbarians - the relatively easy things.

    Discussions that require longer-term strategy - anything concerning another team; tech research; great people - these things merit separate thread. I think most people here have already said the same thing.

    My concern about having discussion for each turn in a new thread is that it will be quite easy to lose sight of important comments that people make on turn 15 once we're on turn 18, 20, or 25 - let alone turn 80! But these comments may still be relevant even if we can't imagine why at the time. But easy to retrieve or review these comments if the turn discussions for a block of turns are in the same thread.

    In other words, by keeping comments isolated in many separate threads, we lose the ability to quickly scan up and and down the page of a thread to find posts relating to opinions stated several turns earlier which may still have relevance. I know I sound like a broken record, but that's because this is something I feel strongly about :crazyeye:

    Honestly, I haven't yet seen a very strong argument AGAINST a block-oriented discussion thread that, at the same time, explains why individual threads would be better. So if you feel strongly that we should keep discussion for each up-coming turn in its own thread, Speak Up, and State Your Case! :hammer:
     
  10. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    The importance of individual turn threads lies in the sense of closure. Even this early, in turns 3 and 4 which had some discussion in a common thread we had comments about the turn 3 move which came in after it was already made. The turn 4 move contained the same choices as the turn 3 move, and it became unclear whether we had a decision to move 9 or not because we couldn't tell what turn the comments were for. The turn players were unsure whether it was ok to proceed or not.

    Right now, we have very few options. If it's easy to be confused now, what will it be like when there are 10 things to do in a turn, or 100?

    I've never needed to look back at comments about previous turns. Comments about overall strategies, yes, but not about the specific moves to be made that turn. I'd rather have separate continuity threads for areas like research, foreign affairs, and espionage.
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    One more thing, that deserves its own post...

    Given we have a resident mod, what about discussing new turns in their own thread and then merging them together into sets of 10? I wouldn't mind doing that if it would help you find info later. :D
     
  12. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    :lol: See, this is precisely why I think a single thread for turn actions is better :crazyeye:

    The nature of forum discussion is such that people respond to the thing they just read, regardless of whether or not it's in the proper thread to make the statement. That's why people were writing about turn4 in the turn3 thread. If they don't check in several times a day, when they next visit our forum they'll see several unread threads with names like Turn5, Turn6, Turn7, etc. The teammate may want to comment on something that happens during turn 5, even though turn 5 has already passed. What happens is that now discussion has 'restarted' in an irrelevant thread. But if upcoming turn discussion were in a single thread, then the entire conversation is not only easy for the turnplayer to find, but easier for people to follow.

    Again, this is precisely the point I'm trying to make. If we have so little to discuss now, and it's getting spread out among several different threads, imagine what will happen when we introduce diplomatic threads, domestic micro-managing threads, naval exploration threads, great people threads, etc.

    In The Council's forum, we actually only started opening up discussion threads dealing with individual turns where there was a lot of detail to discuss - like when we got invaded, for example. Until then, we had a General Turn Discussion thread, an Embassy for each other civ, and a few specialized threads dealing with other issues [I don't want to say too much - spies are all around :shifty:]

    I will, of course, get by with whatever system the team adopts.

    I didn't know this was possible :dubious:
    Perhaps that will be helpful :hmm:
     
  13. topas

    topas Prince

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    peter
    In case, you have been absent for a couple of turns you might not want to read the complete discussion on the previous turns. It is better to look into the generell threads (diplo with team XYZ, general strategy, research plans,...) and then dicuss the on going turn.

    Further i think its more comfortable to find up-to-date screenshots at the beginning of a thread instead of searching one huge discussion thread.
    Posts that cover a longer period of turns on a certain topic (Worker usage (-> plans/discussion of plans) or production plans of each city) do not belong in a turn thread but have their own threads.
     
  14. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    IIRC turns 3 and 4 were in the same thread -- that's why we didn't know which turn the comments were for.

    But this comment about turn 5, when it's actually turn 9, will confuse the turn player, and the rest of the team. It's irrelevant to the current turn, and belongs with the turn 5 comments. :p
     
  15. James009

    James009 Warlord

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    Right now there is an enormous amount of threads floating around here and, I for one, am having some trouble keeping track of whats going on.

    To put it bluntly, we have a disorganized mess...
     
  16. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Possibly... but, assuming you accept my description of people's thread reading habits, they won't be inclined to comment on the turn5 detail until having scrolled further down the page, where they would encounter turn6 comments, then turn7 comments, etc. At that point it becomes clear that their original [hasty] temptation to comment on the turn 5 bit was a bad idea. And so they refrain, and there is no confusion at all for the turnplayer. :smug:

    I don't know if turns 3 and 4 were in the same thread - I was just going off of what you had mentioned... :dunno:


    I agree completely that the screenshots should be easy to find - that's what the Turn Tracker thread is for. It shows us exactly what the turnplayer did during the turn, and serves as a historical record. If someone has been absent for a few days, they will see what happened on each turn. If someone checks every single day, only the most recent post will be unread, so that's where the screenshots are.

    I also completely agree that longer term issues belong in their own thread. :)

    I think I'm going to be silent about all this for a while and see how our structure develops. It seems like everybody agrees that our system isn't yet perfect, that it is a work in progress, and we're all working towards the common goal of making pre-turn discussion easy to contribute to, easy to find, and the turns well-reported. :yup:
     
  17. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Not sure where to post this, but I don't think it needs it's own thread...

    Question for DaveShack:
    As a moderator, do you have the power to combine the individual turn discussion threads into one larger thread? Several times I've been looking for a screenshot of something in particular, and I've had to open and close many threads just to find the one shot. If they were all combined into a single thread, then it would simply be a matter of scrolling down the page to find what is needed.

    But if this isn't possible, no worries. :)

    I suppose the thread name could be something like "Turn Archives"
     
  18. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Yes, threads can be combined. In fact I think they can even be copied, leaving the old thread as well. That was one of the mitigating factors I suggested to cope with needing a turn's discussion to be distinct for the turnplayer but wanting them to be easier to find after.

    How many turns per thread?
     
  19. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Why not place all completed turns into the same thread... but I'm open to other formats.
     

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