Turns 123-140

[Wotan]

I hve discussed it extensively with niklas yesterday evening. He basically said the only thing he planned when attacking was the primary attacks but as soon as the MWs were in line it was a simple grab the unit Civ3 activated and attack and that was how it went through the sequence. So the 1/5 just happened to have that slot chosen by Civ3. And there is a case for it to be used. They considered it a real risk it would be subject to be attacked and with that in mind attacking was better than defending. I'm not getting any wiser and maybe it si better just to put it aside.

I just wish they had not used the 1/5 I guess none of this would have happened had they not. It was just so extremely odd in my view. The outcome is not that "off" stats so there is a weird flaming going on about us complaining about not being able to win easily. Which is complete BS since the SABER incident, at least in my mind was about putting the game to sleep and starting a new game with marine capable units in every age. And teh statistics of the last turns attacks has never been questioned. Only the odd sequence. But as said earleir this is sure easy to find out, just by observing how Civ3 chose which unit to activate and follow that sequence.

Just to make sure we avoid any discussion about our turn and any counterattacks I have told Niklas I will attack in a sequence to start with the most difficult target first and work our way through the possible battles with that in mind. Pretty sure they will have more than 7 units in the town so I guess not even a clean attack series without losses would win us the town.

I'll probably play in a few hours, either at lunchtime or later today.

 

[ThERat]

hey, Wotan before you play, I had a look at the save and this is what I think we should do



1. take out the resource Island (it seems they abandoned 2 towns already). I am sure we can beat that pike there.

2. instead of attacking The Nursery not knowing how many units they have there, why don't we do what I put up. They have 4 heavily wounded units. We can take them out and take our mounties safely to the boats.

4. We can use 2 mounties to pillage roads at th indicated spots to make sure their units in the Nursery can't reach our landing spot.

5. Land 6 mounties next to The Pier. We will lose 1 of them against that mace, but I seriously doubt that they have any defenders around (you can recce the area with one of the empty boats). because we pillaged the roads, we should be quite safe from northern counters

6. Once we landed, we can get another pike/mountie over in 1 turn I think (with ship chaining).

what do you think?

 

[Wotan]

Sorry about this ThERat, I have just finished the turn. And I think it was good I stuck to the plan I had discussed with Niklas prior to seeing the save rather than do something very different at this point when we might need to act a bit cool not to get people worked up over any diversions from what has been said. Sorry if I exeeded my power's as turn player by discussing what we should do with Niklas prior to actually getting approval in the team.

I did the battles in order of difficulty as agreed with Niklas. starting with the Pike in the Lookout. Then wanted to explore with Galleys and check the coastline north and south. Sent a galley to check the spot where we last lost a Galley and saw the two workers still busy clearing the jungle. Cubsfan was one of them and this just was too big a challenge to disregard. Figured if I could sink their Galley we would do what we missed last turn, send a couple of MWs north to upset things. The galley redlined thiers so I put two MWs on the other galley able to reach the tile. When approaching I discover their galley promoted so it is now roughly a 2/3 chance. The MW are already committed I guess and would be at risk of being drowned with the Galley should they attack next turn so do the battle, win and land to capture Cubsfan. That sure felt good.

Then over to the main attraction, the alarums and excursions at the Nursery.
7 attacks we win 6 and land an additional 4 MWs there. Council has 4 units in The Nursery all redlined, the comments from Niklas about the 1/5 suggest they do not have a Barracks there. Maybe they rush it now? Or at least rush a HM or Pike? We should however have the upper hand next turn.

GA is helping on the home front, we are producing roughly 2 Knights per turn now. keeping 2 in support should the FREE Galley decide to drop off some units. But setting up the southern Ship chain to get reinforcements to the battlefield. That is fastest to set up even if it is 2 or 3 ships longer we have all we need in the area already.

Gunpowder in 4 turns.


Battle for the Lookout
vMW (4/4) vs vPike (4/4), retreats, defender at 2/4
vMW (4/4) vs vPike (2/4), retreats, defender at 2/4
vMW (4/4) vs vPike (2/4), loses, defender at 1/4
vMW (4/4) vs vPike (1/4), wins and promotes to 2/5
The Lookout razed

Seabattle near The Black Seal,
rGalley (3/3) vs rGalley (3/3) loses defender at 2/4 (init. thought it was 1/3)
rGalley (3/3) vs vGalley (2/4) wins at 1/3
2MWs land and capture Cubsfan and Tony. (Sorry, but this was just a gamble that was sweet to have pay off.)

Battle for the Nursery
vMW (4/4) vs vAC (4/5), wins at 3/4
vMW (4/4) vs vAC (2/5), wins at 3/4
vMW (3/4) vs vMI (2/4), wins at 3/4
vMI (2/4) vs rHorse (3/3), wins at 1/4
vMW (2/4) vs vHorse (2/4), wins at 1/4
vMW (2/4) vs vHorse (2/4), loses defender promotes to 3/5
vMW (2/4) vs eHorse (3/5), wins and promotes to 3/5

 

[Robi D]

Might be a little late on this conversation but i think some of us are being just slightly paranoid about the battle order the council took.

Personally i am not a regimented play and will try things that are not by the book. To me it seems they regard the AC as disposable since they get built by SoZ and don't upgrade. As for the lucky 1/5 AC, i would have played it sooner hoping to do some damage a health unit could take advantage of later on.

The thing about judging moves according to ones own rationality is that everyones rationality is different

 

[Wotan]

Well, they only had 18 units attacking so we outnumbered them. So additional attackes would only have been possible had eg. the Pike survived.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Oh damn I'm late too, I would've pointed out we could use a pillaged tile for safekeeping from MDI's, between nursery and nine yard.

And about the 1/5 attack, I'd just assume they are THAT desperate and that we need to press on killing them. It sounds like it'll work, from their perspective.

 

[Robi D]

Well, they only had 18 units attacking so we outnumbered them. So additional attackes would only have been possible had eg. the Pike survived.

In that case the order didn't really matter. They are going to throw the kitchen sink at us to stop us getting a foot hold. The order didn't really matter at that point. Besides dumb luck wont save them everytime.

 

[ThERat]

I don't think I need to point that out, but just in case...

you can load the wounded MW's from the resource Island, they will heal onboard the ships

 

[gmaharriet]

I don't think I need to point that out, but just in case...

you can load the wounded MW's from the resource Island, they will heal onboard the ships

I did NOT know that. Thank you for the useful tip!!!

 

[ThERat]

according to the latest post by Niklas, we lost another 6 MW's. He didn't even use any mace yet. They lost 3 units, but I can't see us winning anything without proper defense.

IIRC the battle of klarius versus ???, the key was sending plenty of defenders to absorb all the attacks.
That's why I suggested to defeat stack of 4 and load wounded units onto the boat, while we land further in the south where they might not expect us and due to pillaging road, we could have escaped any attack.

It's too late but I can't see us achieving anything this way.

 

[Whomp]

We should hold that island with a Saber tactic until we find out where the saltpeter is. There's a possibility it could be resource denial to Council.

 

[ThERat]

Ok, after thinking about our latest move for a bit, here are more comments.

I remember in the inital discussion about warfare and MTDG, Whomp or someone else brought up the issue about warfare with a very skillful play by Wacken. He built up massive amounts of defenders for a landing.
This is how he won the war. Any attack was absorbed by them and all the attackers could then move in.

What we did in the last 3 turns, was the exact opposite. The result? War happiness and GA, but plenty of losses. In fact our whole attack force got/will be wiped out. Our defense 1 units do not cut it even againts wounded horses. That's why I suggested to defeat the small exposed stack and move into the boats to cut further losses.
I would have landed in the south for a surprise as I am guessing all their units headed for the current spot. With roads pillaged, we might have had a chance to wreak some havoc before moving onto boats yet again.
In the meantime we could have built up more defenders.

Anyway, what's done is done. I would have wished you wouldn't have played so fast, Wotan. This is a critical point and I do think we have quite a few experienced warmongers in the team.

As for the future, let's just evacuate that tiny stack of 4 units that is left and re-think our strategy. I agree with Whomp to block all resource Islands from attacks with cheap units. We wouldn't know where resources are.

I guess we have to build up a stack of muskets/knights before moving in again. We could also sail around in the south with the evacuated units to make them think we land there and then drop the northern units elsewhere. It must be fast and swift. Attack and raze and evacuate. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Wotan]

We were from the beginning of the campaign vs Council out to wreak as much havoc as our MWs would possibly be capable of inflicting. We discusesd doing this and then transfer assets to GONG as an exit from the game. Has our game goals changed from that mission?

I do agree we probably would have been better served doing it according to your plan but the pretty extraordinary situation after what we all felt was a pretty strange pattern of unit allocations in their first attack. I talked to Niklas about procedure to avoid any additional bad blood between our teams so in one sense it was unfortunate I wanted to use speed and a simple best unit first and then down through the stack until all unit were used.

Not sure how an attack on the four units in the open would have ended but we had 10 units next to their town after our turn and 8 of those 3 or better in attack value. A small force yes but they were down to heavily wounded units only so decided to gamble on them not having more than a couple of rushed units to add to the battle, unfortunately they managed to add a few too many.

One interesting thing is they did not feel the need to use the 1HP units this time. The situation is pretty similar to the situation last turn. Using them is not a question of desperate measures, they have more units in the town than we have outside it, the same situation they felt they needed to attack with a 1 unit last turn. Not saying there is anything shady going on. Just an interesting observation.

So I guess we change to hit and run tactics now? We have our northern units, they are capable of hopefully enter into the action at that end of the island.

What about the remaining units, load on ships and send home for upgrade to Knights? Keep a few Ships cruising in groups to force them to remain vigil?

On the next chapter of this battle: Muskets are a waste in my mind, Knights are capable of doing almost as good a job on defense and absolutely a better job on the attack they also move faster.

Do we continue long term with the game or will we end it after the next "Knight" war? We build about 2 per turn and should have at least 35 of them at the end of our GA.

I am also keeping all of our small fringe towns without road connection on our home island to be able to build Warriors for "sticks and stones" shore patrols. When towns are in position we need 53 units on patrol to cordon off until Marines. At the current pace we will have that number of Warriors in less than 20 turns. We have 17 now. I am pretty sure it will be in time to counter any FREE/SABER landings. Sending a group of Galleys to cruise SABER coasts could also be a handy thing even if I would assume they do not disband their coastal defenses prior to Marines.

 

[Wotan]

I remember in the inital discussion about warfare and MTDG, Whomp or someone else brought up the issue about warfare with a very skillful play by Wacken. He built up massive amounts of defenders for a landing.
This is how he won the war. Any attack was absorbed by them and all the attackers could then move in.

What we did in the last 3 turns, was the exact opposite. The result? War happiness and GA, but plenty of losses. In fact our whole attack force got/will be wiped out.
.

Yes it was very different. Doing it according to Wackens plan would suggest we had pulled back all our forces. Built massive amounts of defenders for the landing and returned in what, 30 turns time or so, to find the shore line filled with units and yet again turn back with no landing. If we should have plenty of defenders prior to landing why did we go for a landing in the first place?

Anyway, what's done is done. I would have wished you wouldn't have played so fast, Wotan. This is a critical point and I do think we have quite a few experienced warmongers in the team.
.

I tried to defuse an awkward situation. A situation I sure was part of creating by being a bit suspicious about their attack sequence. Changing what I had talked to Niklas about would have risked escalating the conflict with counterclaims of us adjusting when we realise we could not take the town. Besides it was a calculated risk nevertheless. They were down to oneliners and the chance they might not have more than one or two additional reinforcements would be a very different matter than when they apparently had 5 or 6 fresh units. The fact they had this many fresh units do make the reasoning for using the 1/5 last turn a bit out of place. They sure have enough units to make sure we cannot force our way into the town so that is still odd in my view.

I agree we should pull out now but still maintain we acted according to plans laid out in advance. I woudl really have prefered you had been more opposed to the venture a bit earlier than to come waving the "Wacken" card at this stage. The weakness was known and discussed. It woudl have been the same had we gained a foothold on SABER island.

I guess we have to build up a stack of muskets/knights before moving in again. We could also sail around in the south with the evacuated units to make them think we land there and then drop the northern units elsewhere. It must be fast and swift. Attack and raze and evacuate. Rinse and repeat.

Yes and no. It do require we change the current plan, to use MWs until out of them and then gift to GONG. I have no problem with this. But I do disagree we build any Muskets. A Knight is 1 lower in defense but an inferior unit in all other aspects to a Knight. We will also be close to or actually have Cavalry at the end of our GA. Upgrading to Cavalry only feels a lot better than going in with Muskets and Cavalry mixed.

So do we change this game objective? Are we no longer looking at MWs as expendable and let them fight till death since we cannot gift them? Do we not gift and leave the game after GA and are we to reneg on what we have told GONG, that we will eventually gift them our assets? I can see a reasoning for sticking around until GA end we will be able to get them all lower half techs too.

And a second wave of attack at the end of that period involving Knights/Cavalry might help too.

So do we bring our remaining forces home for upgrade but keep ships so Council fear another landing? The northern units should they attampt to disrupt their northern shore or not? They are not bringing massive amounts of defenders.

@ThERat: Not trying to start a verbal war between us. I am sure your plan last turn was better. But the result from the actions I took will not create a risk of escalating the conflict outside of the game, while changing it sure would risk that. It is in my view a political price we have paid for it and it cost us 4 MWs lost to 3 HMs lost for them during their turn, right? Your suggestion would have resulted in none of this happen and we would have lost a couple of MWs last turn and one from not being able to move the roadcutter in the tile with their defenders.

I am just equally sure I would have appreciated the "Wacken" card played prior to us moving off from SABER seas to go find a landing spot on Council island.

 

[ThERat]

Is disconnecting a resource like saltpeter allowed? If so, we could build knight/pike combos? I also dislike muskets as they are not really worth the investment.

As for the longer term tactics, I think we need to sound out the team. Short term I think we can still use the MW's with hit and run.

 

[ThERat]

@ThERat: Not trying to start a verbal war between us.

I am fine, I understand your explanation. Let's take a moment after we see the next save to discuss how to proceed

 

[Wotan]

I am fine, I understand your explanation. Let's take a moment after we see the next save to discuss how to proceed

It is good to be slapped a bit from time to time. So keep it up ThERat. I have this unfortunate personality with an extreme "lock on target" and go. And you don't stop an elephant in the middle of a charge that easily.

EDIT: I agree we are at a crossroads now as to what we wnat to do with the game. Several scenarios are open for us so I am looking forward to a productive discussion over the next few turns.

 

[Whomp]

Good plan guys and I agree on the muskets. I'd still like to deny the island since my feeling is Rik has strategically placed a number of resources on these islands.

 

[Robi D]

Good plan guys and I agree on the muskets. I'd still like to deny the island since my feeling is Rik has strategically placed a number of resources on these islands.

I agree, the islands will have something important on them like saltpeter or coal.

 

[ThERat]

I opened th save and I like what I have seen.

Council has to abandon 2 towns directly next to our 2 MW's that stole the workers
That's now a total of 5 towns gone for them and we control their resource Island.

They have muskets however, so attacking with MW's will be tough. We might want to try and land a few units in the north from where our other galleys come.

I would load those 4 heavily wounded and surrounded units + the slave and sail maybe south? We might want to land in the north while we have a small party of disturbance in the south?
I would also make sure we can occupy all resource Islands and block them