turns 21-36

[I. Larkin]

Therefore in my opinion the risk of going south is much higher than the risk of going to blue. If we go south, we might end up wasting 3 turns and then loosing a turn on Philo on top of it.

the last point is the one i really see: the barb risk.

This factors bring me to intuitive conclusion that we must have road to North from Camelot first.
Warrior may covers settler that go to blue dot.
Corruption appeared so high, that City at south (not connected) will be very corrupted.
At this situation we may use scientists in Tinta and 3d City.
Food loses now will be compensated at Republic.
Big dilemma, but I think we may go and scout North with 10-20% Lux.
To avoid emotions (that in most cases lack of information) we need it...

 

[I. Larkin]

I think we may execute my plan #56 before worker need to move (2590 BC). Lantzelot example shows that settler have to be escorted. It is easy if we have road and impossible if settler go south.

 

[Lanzelot]

I don't understand: in #56 you have Tintagel work the wheat now (27) and then a Sci next turn (28). But if we take the Sci now, Writing is finished! (Exactly 200 beakers. Note that there were two mistakes in my SS, which "cancel each other out". I noticed this yesterday when making the Sandkasten: at turn 21 we actually had 12 b instead of 11 as given in the SS, because the ivory connected "interturn", while at turn 23 we only had 10 instead of the given 11, because Camelot was size 5, so lux had to be increased to 20%. But in any case, with a Sci now, we complete the necessary 200.)

So I will start a road now (settler can be finished in t30 without irrigating, if I run cap at 4-3-3 food sequence instead of 4-2-4) and employ a Sci in Tintagel, right?

 

[Lanzelot]

What do you think of the following sequence? (See file.)
I don't think we should actually play that way (it used 6 sci in Tintagel, 2 in Pink and one in Camelot at size 5), but nevertheless I'd like you to take a look.

Settler at 30
Pink at 31
Curragh at 33 (from Camelot - Tintagel builds a warrior instead)
Philosophy at 36

Please ignore the 13g in the bank account, it's from disposing the barb camp, but I didn't touch the money. I left Pink undefended as to not loose a warrior, and the barbs carried away 12g.

But both towns are size 1 and we don't have a second worker yet, so it's really crippling. Though it may be a "desperate measure", if we know that someone is close to Philo.

 

[I. Larkin]

Without ss I can't. Main idea of Tinta was save a wheat. Unfortunately Camelot may give wheat only now. Also, Tinta need a wheat before growth to benefit from forest. I like idea to build road North and 2 North and settle Pink first, but I even more like an idea to scout pink area around and alter Pink if necessary. When we get Philosophy if we play this way?

So I will start a road now (settler can be finished in t30 without irrigating, if I run cap at 4-3-3 food sequence instead of 4-2-4) and employ a Sci in Tintagel, right?

Settler will appear at turn 30 without irrigating.
See my ss.

 

[I. Larkin]

Looked at save...
Position strange...We have to loose our food or delay settler.
What your plan, Ulrich? Tell us a secret...

Secret service says, that capital of Eagles has 5 fpt, and when they finish Granary they will have full scale SF.

 

[Lanzelot]

Looked at save...
Position strange...We have to loose our food or delay settler.
What your plan, Ulrich? Tell us a secret...

The plan in sum3.txt did not work, because in order to finish Writing at turn 27, Tintagel had to work a Sci in turns 26 and 27 (not 26 and 28 as in sum3.txt).
Here is now my latest attempt at an ss. Philo is reached in t37 (using only 3 scientists). The result can be seen in the attached save.

I wait for your ok, because it involves moving our worker to 2N instead of improving a river plain for Camelot. But we have Glastonbury ready at 32 and the other wheat fully improved at 36! (Despite the fact, that our Sandbox has this annoying barb camp right next to pink... In the real game it will hopefully go smoother.)

Curragh sails off now in t34.

If I get your ok (or alternative plans), I'll play tomorrow during lunch break.

Lanzelot

 

[templar_x]

I cannot find an alternative sequence, at least not a quick one.

You´ve got my ok, although it looks a bit strange. But this is not your fault, in fact, it is great you found out that the plan won´t work before it was too late.

@ Ivan, all - I would find it strange that the max food should not be the same for everyone in despo. What was all the planning before the game started for then? But maybe the total food bonuses are equal, but not the placement towards the cap?

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Secret service says, that capital of Eagles has 5 fpt, and when they finish Granary they will have full scale SF.

The Eagles moved their settler in the first turn. So perhaps they are Expansionist and their scout discovered their second food bonus? Our second food is unfortunately 4N of the first food, so impossible to get both inside the same city radius. But with a different layout, it may be possible.
For us this means of course: "more micro-management"... Handling one town with +5fpt is much easier than handling one with +4fpt and one with +3fpt... On the other hand we may benefit from sharing the food with other towns?

BTW: some more general remarks: our first worker will continue improving tiles in the north, our second one will improve between capital and Tintagel while at the same time preparing a road towards the gold hill. So we will soon need a third worker that can finish the original plan of improving the river plains S of our elephant. (Without these tiles our capital is too short on shields for the planned 6turn combo.) So perhaps we should build this worker before the next settler?! E.g. warrior, worker, warrior, worker, warrior, settler instead of warrior, worker, warrior, settler?

And: if the cap is operated as a combo for a longer period, do we then want an early barracks in it? We could upgrade vet swordsmen then. (Otherwise those many reg warriors would not really be useful.)

 

[I. Larkin]

Will look at SS soon

 

[templar_x]

i looked.

- is it correct that there is no scouting in that ss? so we are settling the wheat town "blind"? i do not like this.
we could have Tintagel on a geek/taxman on t29 and t30, lux to 10%, and move on MP out for exploration. the lux would only be needed for two turns, and that could make up for the money we need for our granary.
- by the time we move the next settler towards gh town, we should already have this warrior brought back and another one built which can explore there and protect our people.
- i do not believe we need a rax in the cap. when do we imagine that we revolt to Rep? somewhen in 30-40 turns? that is a total of let´s say 6 warriors in the combo, while the other towns do not need to build any - that may be just enough, not too much in my eyes. in Rep, the cap is able to be a 4-turner.
- builds: our 2nd wheat town could immediately start on a gran (in rep, it should be able to be a 2-turn worker factory). the coastal town builds ships and then starts on prebuild rather soonish. the gold hill town should start on a rax imo, the blue town on a rax as well, the one in the s/se could start with a ship. warriors, workers and settlers come from the cap.
- you sure we so desperately need another (3rd) worker? i am not so sure. there are 2 more tiles to (partly) improve for the cap. 1 or 2 roads to the 4th/gh-town, depending on where it lies. then it is ready for other tasks.
another settler and then another worker sounds better to me, but let´s see when we are there. from 35-38, we could build another warrior and another worker as well, if this proves better.
- what tile is the 2nd worker roading in your t36-37.

- where are the others???

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

I looked as well but did not ran through program. I see some mistakes, like Tinta will use forest when grow, but nothing said about that.

I agree, that with "pottery handicap" we are at the close shave (36 - 37 may be decisive) but I think that playing in blind is a good thing. I agree with t-x that when road will be ready warrior must go north. If nothing better will appear we will settle "pink".

- i do not believe we need a rax in the cap. when do we imagine that we revolt to Rep? somewhen in 30-40 turns? that is a total of let´s say 6 warriors in the combo, while the other towns do not need to build any - that may be just enough, not too much in my eyes. in Rep, the cap is able to be a 4-turner.

Kind of agree with that. But better, if Camelot operates at 5-6 SF mode, rather then 3-5, as now. May be at some pause we may consider Barracks with forest cut. But unlikely.

- builds: our 2nd wheat town could immediately start on a gran (in rep, it should be able to be a 2-turn worker factory). the coastal town builds ships and then starts on prebuild rather soonish. the gold hill town should start on a rax imo, the blue town on a rax as well, the one in the s/se could start with a ship. warriors, workers and settlers come from the cap.

OK, but I am not sure that GH is better than 3s. Also, barracks to far away from battle line. May be reg warriors are OK from GH.

- you sure we so desperately need another (3rd) worker? i am not so sure. there are 2 more tiles to (partly) improve for the cap. 1 or 2 roads to the 4th/gh-town, depending on where it lies. then it is ready for other tasks.

Not "desperately" but at some stage "yes". Better to build road south before settler goes there. Also for "prebuild" better to have some mines at south. We probably will need road north to connect second lux...

- where are the others???

Who knows... Configuration of land may be very sophisticated. I approximately understand what they are doing, may be will writ later...
EDIT:
Have no chance to find something better. My program don't like space at tiles name. Execute your plan Ulrich with scouting correction. After Sci in Tinta we are without reserves. Let see, if we needs desperate measures to have Phylo at 36-37 after scouting results.

 

[templar_x]

@ Ivan -

1. by "gh town" i in the meanwhile rather mean 3s, or somewhere there. needs scouting as well, but 1 turn ahead is enough.

2. by "the others" i meant our brothers in arms, the rest of the knights team

but i am already keen to hear your intelligence about the other teams, of course.

btw, in your 2nd sentence a "not" is missing, but it is clear what you are saying.

surely the SF has to operate on a bigger size later. after Philo and finding out about the lux situation we should define how it is supposed to work.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

we could have Tintagel on a geek/taxman on t29 and t30, lux to 10%, and move on MP out for exploration.

Execute your plan Ulrich with scouting correction.

Templar, we do not have MP in Tintagel, yet...
However, I think I found an elegant solution to our scouting problem: I noticed that at 10% lux, 10% tax, 80% science (which we need to run anyway at the moment, because Camelot is size 5 and our bank account empty...) Camelot puts 1 commerce into the bank and 2 commerce into luxuries. (When I change it to 10% lux, 90% science, only one coin goes into luxuries.) No idea, why this is this way, but this subtle difference means that one MP is enough to keep Camelot happy, and I can move one out for scouting. For the next turn I will keep it at 10/10/80 (saving one gold in the bank), then Camelot will be at size 3, where the one MP keeps it happy with 0% lux. When the scout returns home, I can increase science to 100% and get the extra gold back from the bank. That way we won't loose any gold while scouting! (Or perhaps at most 1g, but we have a "buffer" of 1g anyway.)
Need to play through the details in the Sandkasten, but I think we reach Philo the same turn without having to use another geek.

So anyway, here's our intelligence information:

Looks like there are two floodplains. Does this change our plan? Warrior will go into the forest next turn, then we can see more.

- what tile is the 2nd worker roading in your t36-37.

The tile exactly E of Tintagel. It can be used by Camelot and Tintagel and it can also serve as part of the road to the GH.

But better, if Camelot operates at 5-6 SF mode, rather then 3-5, as now.

In my test games I had also been playing with the idea of switching Tintagel to a warrior now and then doing the curragh in Camelot. It has some benefits:

• Tintagel has shield overrun on the curragh anyway (shields from forest at growth are wasted)
• The curragh in Camelot will finish the same turn as that in Tintagel would. And meanwhile the capital could grow some more to operate at 4-6 instead of 3-5.
• With our MP out scouting, this warrior from Tintagel might be just in time to prevent loosing gold for lux?!

But I was not completely sure, whether Camelot at size 6 would be desirable because the high lux would also waste coins in Tintagel. Can someone test this sequence in the latest 2590BC Sandkasten?

Cheers, Lanzelot

 

[templar_x]

Templar, we do not have MP in Tintagel, yet...

ahem... that is exactly why you have to use that MP in the cap, my fellow knights brother

templar_x

 

[templar_x]

growing the cap immediately does not benefit us in my eyes. the other towns need to grow a bit first so they too benefit from the lux tax and not just waste it.

first we need to finish the first ring, with the lux tax as low as possible.

templar_x

 

[templar_x]

re 2nd wheat town:
am keen to see the view from that river forest. this forest tile looks good, or the tile 1nw (1ne of the wheat).
the latter would require some changes in the ring pattern though. like, seen from the cap:
- 1n2nw
- wheat town 3n1ne (with a gran, it should be operating as a 3-turn worker factory very soon, 2-turns probably only in Republic possible)
- 4ne (gets another fp immediately)
- 2e (another navy town with quite good production)
- 4se (or sth like that)

this is NOT indicating any time plan for settling, just supposed city sites if we move the wheat town towards the fp, what i think will be the best thing to do. otherwise we´d need culture or another town in the 2nd ring there soonish, while we have limited settlers and many other towns to plant.

and we will have to hurry to make use of additional food sources! if the Eagles are operating a 4-turner, they will take up speed soon.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

Sorry, have no time to reply today.
With next warrior step we will have lot more information and will discuss.
Basically agree, that corragh better from Camelot and warrior from Tinta.

 

[templar_x]

looked at the save. i think it is clear,either the forest tile for the other wheat town or the tile 1nw. the warrior should go there next to see what the 3 adjacent tiles give.

maybe in Republic we can even make that a settler factory, or an alternating sf and wf.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Basically agree, that corragh better from Camelot and warrior from Tinta.

Ok, I will go that way. It makes better use of the shields from Tintagel, and it has one other bonus: our warrior does not need to return home, but can continue scouting towards NE, while the curragh will scout NW.

Regarding the 3rd worker: I would like to have one early. At the moment Camelot does not have enough shields for warrior+settler in 6. But it has enough shields for warrior+2workers in 6, and the one additional worker will quickly improve the necessary tiles for making Camelot a true 6-turn combo, not?

Lanzelot