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Tweaking Drill and Shock

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    From the post of the usefulness of the longswordman, raises the idea that tweaking drill and shock could make sword units more effective taking cities. Also many people agree that right now those promotions are not very well balanced.

    This post is for further elaboration on the issue.
     
  2. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Specifically, I believe that Funak raised the idea that both promotions should raise Combat Strength, but that they would become anti-unit and anti-city promotions that eschew the bonus versus fortified units.

    I fully support this change.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Funak has proposed this:
    That means removing the bonus against fortified units.
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Well, I obviously agree with my suggestion.

    I was thinking of doing something along the lines of how the melee ship promotions work, but melee-ships are just too different from melee units.

    I was also thinking of other mods to replace the flanking, like bonus versus damaged units and so on. But there wasn't really a good mechanic to use there.
     
  5. hokath

    hokath King

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    At the moment I think it is very hard to work out exactly what sort of Drill/Shock ratio you should be going for in your army, as has been said, they are both all-round good.

    While I don't think changing to this system is necessary for balance, it would certainly help everyone - especially people new to the project - on choosing promotions.

    (Then give longswordsmen and swordsmen the free city attack promo, like in CivIV.)
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I'd like to summarize bonuses from these promotions:
    - Raw CS increase: This fits for everything, it's the no brained choice.
    - Against city: This is only good for units able to take on cities to begin.
    - Flanking: This is good whenever you have a solid line of units and when you can position them in order to overwhelm your enemies.
    - Against fortify: Fortified units use to be inside fortifications, cities and barb encampments. Melee units providing cover for siege units may also fortify to stand more city shots.

    Other promotions in infantry line provide:
    - Extra bonus against cities
    - Recovering while moving
    - Extra attack
    - Healing nearby units
    - Cover for ranged attacks
    - Increased strength against: mounted, armored
    - Increased movement in: water, forests, sfsf

    Those promotions comes as tiers. Tier 3 meaning you need at least 1 tier 2 promotion. Tier 3 promotions are supposed to be better than tier 2 promotions, as tier 2 promotions are supposed to be better than tier 1. But this doesn't happen with Drill and Shock.
    As for now, Drill I provides the same bonus as Drill III, so the only reason to take drill III before any other tier 3 promotion is to have access to tier 4 promotions. That somehow explains why Drill bonuses aren't progressive.

    The idea behind promotion branches is to specialize units for unique roles. Drill sounds like something geared to take down defences, while Shock sounds like defeating armies. So my bet is this:
    Drill: +5% CS, +25% against fortify, +25% against city
    Shock: +10% CS, +10% flanking
    Consider that a unit with flanking is already gaining strenght against fortifications and cities if it manages to flank, while the drill bonuses are very situational.
    A drill 3 melee unit may have +165% against a fortified garrison inside a city, or just +90% when the garrison is not fortified, while a shock 3 may have only +60% if it manages to flank. Then adds the siege promotion.
    In combat, a drill 3 melee will be only +15% CS, so it is unlikely that a unit picks drill if it isn't for taking cities. Than means fortified units outside cities can stand longer because few enemy units will come with promoted drills, and certainly not mounted units. We may need siege units to move them.
     
  7. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Fortifying should not weaken a unit, though. That's so strange.
     
  8. XplosiveLun

    XplosiveLun A humble village

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    Units recover and gain strength when they fortify. So it's fine to have some Against Fortify Promotion as long as it doesn't deal ridiculously large amount of excessive damage which units are better not to fortify. It seems counter-initiative to fortify when fortifying kills your units faster. Besides, it should be a gain/loss when you decide to defend against/heal where some units are good at hunting down injured, healing units.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Well, think that very few units will be able to be a threat for fortified units, only those specialized in taking cities. But now this specialized units can push through any defence. If it still makes you uncomfortable, lower the bonus against fortify and raise against city, but then it would be more difficult to pass over a fortification than killing a garrisoned unit.
     
  10. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    The war game is not where Civ exactly excels. Even with EUI, figuring out which units have which promotions (especially enemy units) is kind of arcane and trying, and the final parts of the game break down into carpets of units, rather than carefully micro-managing an elite band of units.

    So let's keep the promotions, especially the early echelons of them, simple and stop them from breaking core assumptions of the game (I.E., that units are safer fortified, safer in forts, safer in cities, and that cities are safer with a unit in them.)

    Flanking a fortified unit should be how you mitigate its defense bonus, or by bringing artillery class units to shell them. If we need an entrenched-unit buster promotion, give that job to artillery class units, ships, and air units. Having melee units good at breaking up fortifications doesn't make tons of sense -- that's exactly who they are fortified against, on some level, especially when fortification starts to symbolize Roman structures, and then later trenches.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    The point is that a fortified unit is still safer, for it would require some specialized units like siege units and drill promoted melee to move them. In a sense, drill will make melee units more like siege units (weaker compared to shock units, but stronger against fortifications and cities). Being weaker in everything else means that other friendly units can take easier on this drill enemy unit. And don't forget a fortified unit may heal.

    I understand the problem to check promotions on enemy units, though.
     
  12. Natura

    Natura Warlord

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    I must admit that I find the bonus attack vs cities to be quite useless; even a mildly defended city (walls, a single defensive unit) can beat off large numbers of melee attackers. Heck, in my most recent game one border city was assaulted (by Shaka no less) with spearmen and warriors and the city, with no walls and no defensive units, held off this determined attack by 4 units without assistance.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    This is definitely not a fact. At the moment only naval promotions work that way, and I'm not really certain they should either.
    Archery promotions, Submarine promotions, carrier promotion and airplane promotions all work the exact same way as the current melee promotion.



    I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood how flankingbonuses works so I'll explain it.
    Currently if you're flanking one unit with 2 units you get a flanking-bonus of 15%, if you add a +10% flanking-bonus to that you end up on 16.5%, as you can notice that is pretty close to being nothing, which is the reason why most flankingbonuses are a lot higher.

    I still really hate the idea of drill giving a bonus versus fortified units, fortifying is supposed to always make your unit more durable, but with 2 points in your drill suggestion you would net -10% CS for fortifying, certainly not fair.

    I'd still say that something along the lines of
    Drill: +10% CS +20% CS vs cities
    Shock: +10% CS +25% flanking
    would suit our need better. You're making an active choice here, if you're not planning on throwing your soldiers against the walls of cities you should probably always pick shock, but if you pick Drill, you're gaining a pretty substantial bonus to attacking cities, so it could probably be worth it.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    The suggested change comes from the feeling that sword units aren't worthy for their cost. Having them get a niche (excel taking cities/fortifications) and making bonus against fortified units rarer (they are already good in defence), will make a thougher decission whether to look first for iron or horses.
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Well, if tier 4 promotions like march don't requiere Drill 3 or Shock 3, then there's no reason they can't be progressive, being every promotion a little better than the previous.


    Ok, so let's say you place 3 units with shock 3 at +25% flanking bonuses each one against a fortified unit. First unit get +75%, and from the third you get +131%. Does it mean that every unit will have a +131% if they are 3 units against one? Now, compare it with 3 units with drill 3 at +20% vs cities. They have a +60% each one. No way I'm gonna pick drill.
     
  16. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I've always thougth that you would end with "25% flanking bonus" (= 0.15+0.10) rather than with "16.5 flanking bonus" (=0.15*1.10).
    But you know beter than me how it works, so I will trust you.
     
  17. XplosiveLun

    XplosiveLun A humble village

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    Beyond Earth's promotions seem neat enough for me. Earn Xp, get stronger.
     
  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Having 3 units with shock 3 (+75% flanking total) flanking one unit, each one of those units would receive a flankingbonus of 30%(base, 2(number of units -1)x15%) x 1.75 (+75%) meaning they would all end up with a +52.5%(unless my math fails me) either way it's nowhere near the numbers you're talking about.

    I would go in-game to check it out myself, but I'm fairly certain that's how it works. Which is why no one is in a uproar over the Mandekalu cavalry unit which has a +100% flanking-bonus as a base-promotion.


    I've heard a lot of complaint about that system being extremely boring, while balanced, introducing something like that probably isn't the best idea.
     
  19. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    Source




    And I think it works on cities. 6 units around a city allow each of them to attack it with +50% CS.

    Source
     
  20. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I think vanilla had 10% I think CPP increased it to 15%, but don't quote me on that, quite possible it is still 10%. Either way I don't think it works on cities (they have no flanks, but I might be wrong on that count.) and the mod is still multiplied, not added.
     

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