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Tweaking Drill and Shock

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    yes it was already the case in vanilla
    to summerize :


    CS from flanking :
    X = numbers of friendly units around the target
    Y = numbers of enemies units around the attacker
    Z = Total flanking bonus.

    F = final bonus

    F = (X-Y)*10 * (1 + Z ). The bonus doesn't apply if you get a negative modifier instead I think you get the unit's flanking bonus that you are attacking.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Let's agree on what we desire to happen and then tweak the number until we get there.

    1. Mounted units can dominate in open combat, be roughly equal in rough terrain and losers against cities. Their high mobility makes up for their strength in situations where infantry may be better.
    2. A fortified infantry unit may defeat a mounted unit.
    3. Sword units may be able to take cities by themselves.
    4. Drill promoted units may be noticeable weaker than shock promoted in combat.
    5. Shock promoted units may be noticeable weaker against cities and fortifications.

    Flanking working against cities and fortifications makes a scene where shock promoted units are almost as good as drill against fortifications, if not better, while being absolutely better in every other thing.

    So we could do some math, and see the outcome of some scenes with shock and drill for:
    A) 4 sword units against a city. A minimum to conquer it.
    B) 2 sword units against a fortified unit in rough terrain/fortification
    C) 2 mounted units against a fortified unit in rough terrain/fortification
    D) 2 sword units against 2 mounted units.

    If I understand Gokudo formulae, a unit with +25% flanking with 2 adjacent friendly against one enemy unit do: (2-0)*CS*(1+0.25) = 2.5 CS
    Three promotions will give +75% flanking, and that is: (2-0)*CS*(1+0.75) = 3.5 CS
    That's what I had initially thought, but modified it a little with what you said about stacking bonuses.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I still don't agree with them getting a bonus against fortified units.

    This needs to be researched, but either way, even with 6 units around a city a +25% flanking bonus would only provide you with a (6-1) x 0.25 x 15= 18.75% CS which would be less than the 20% bonus from Drill.

    Still someone needs to confirm if flanking works versus cities because I can't say I remember it actually doing that.


    Honestly not really sure how you're counting here.

    If you're using a 20 CS unit as an example a unit with a +25% flanking bonus with 2 adjacent units: (3-1)*0.1875*20CS = 7.5 CS from flanking total, without counting the base 15% flanking bonus (just the CS from the promotion) you would get (3-1)*0.0375*20CS = 1.5 CS.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    If I understand Gokudo formula, it'll take us at least four seasons to figure out whether or not a unit has a flanking bonus.

    G
     
  5. Sendaf

    Sendaf Chieftain

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    I agree with Funak that Fortifying a unit should never make it more vulnerable in any circumstance. If the bonus vs fortified unit stays could we manage to cap the bonus so that it at the very best it only cancels out the fortification bonus?

    I find math difficult and tedious and I don't want to pull out a calculator every time I want a unit to heal on or near the front lines.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I know you're trying to make a joke, but I was really looking forward to your input here.

    Also if you actually know if cities can get flanked, that would help as well.

    Bonus versus fortified units is way better used as a policy or tenet or something like that, if it all.

    You shouldn't really have to bring any calculator out for this, I just wanted to give you exact numbers because people think slightly rounded numbers equals guesstimates or even wild guesses.
    What you need to know is that a 25% bonus to flanking adds about 4% CS for every unit providing you with a flanking bonus, meaning about 20% (or closer to 19% actually) bonus CS towards completely surrounded units.
     
  7. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    I've made a quickie test.

    Six units no promos:
    Spoiler :

    So flanking bonus is 15% per additional unit.

    Six units Drill III:
    Spoiler :

    So the promo is a multiplier to the flanking bonus.

    Six units Shock III:
    Spoiler :

    Notice the minuscule difference compared to Drill III, even though having 6 units surrounding one is a pretty unreal scenario (in case of carpets it's 3 units at best) and Shock works regardless of the amount of units.

    Two units Drill III:
    Spoiler :

    Three levels well spent.

    Two units Shock III:
    Spoiler :


    Six units one city no promos:
    Spoiler :

    Cities don't get flanking bonus and blockade bonus isn't affected by any promo, as far as I am aware.

    Six units one city Shock III:
    Spoiler :

    Does nothing against cities.

    Six units one city Drill III:
    Spoiler :

    Does something against cities, but they have so much more health it doesn't even matter. Better to deploy several siege units who also don't take damage while attacking and can easily get 100%+ vs. cities on top of that.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Cities cannot get flanked, they are flankless.

    Flanking bonus is a % modifier to base flanking bonus.

    G
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Then you think drill units have to be worse than shock at everything?

    Now I don't get how you count, neither. Where does 0.1875 come from? (3-1) is the same as (2-0) so I think we agree at least in this. I thought 10 in the formulae is the base CS, Z is the total flanking bonus, so for Shock III is 0.75. I can't believe the 10 represents a bonus, for it would mean that a 20CS unit with +75% flanking and 2 supporting units will have 20CS *(2-0)*10*(1,75) = 700CS , unlikely.

    I remember there is a +10% flanking bonus in vanilla when we pick Moral policies. It's not there for everyone.

    Sendaf, I agree that a unit fortified has to defend better in any case, but what I want to agree upon is that units with shock promotions are weaker against fortified units than those with drill promotions. If fortifying gives +50% defence, drill III units may have +60% against fortified units, so no big deal. They will be just 10% weaker when defending against drill 3 units, and drill units won't be common for they are very specialized. If you feel more comfortable, I can lower it to +15% vs fortified, so even Drill 3 units can't do more damage to a fortified unit than a non-fortified unit.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Pretty much exactly what I thought, thanks.

    This is the main reason there really isn't any benefit to the current Drill, and the main reason I suggested letting both promotions have +10% CS.

    And with cities not getting flanked everything pretty much adds up.

    0.1875 is the base flanking mod 0.15 times the flanking bonus 25%

    Honestly, I've tried to explain this multiple times, can't you just trust me on this?

    Also the Moral policy have nothing to do with flanking at all.
     
  11. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    Actually, Shock does work against cities, but for some reason +30% CS isn't shown in the combat preview, yet is taken into account.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Didn't even look at that image, that's really weird. Of course the flat cs bonus from shock should count towards cities.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Many many thanks, Strigvir!
     
  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    As for not wanting to give units a bonus against Fortified Units, Volley (Siege) gives a 50% bonus against Cities and Fortified Units.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The lua doesn't show combat bonuses versus cities, it seems. Odd. If you wouldn't mind posting a github, I'll see about fixing that.

    G
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Well, if bonus vs cities only works on cities and flanking bonuses only works outside cities, that only left the question of units fortified in a fortification.
    3 units against a fortified unit may have +30% just for their flanking bonus. With Shock 3 the may have +(1.20)³=1.728 extra for flanking, totalling +51% each one. While Drill 3 may have nothing extra against a fortified or unfortified unit outside cities.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's fine. Units in a fortification are for flanking, cities are for city-attacking.

    G
     
  18. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    I always thought shock sounds more offensive like bold and surprising attacks whilst drill sounds more defensive like holding the line and better organisation so how about:

    shock: +5% CS +10% CS when attacking
    drill +5% CS, +10% CS when defending, +15% Flanking bonus
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    An unpromoted siege unit has +100% vs cities to start with, but they don't receive damage while shooting.
    Apparently, for infantry even +60% is negligible against cities, and that's for Drill 3. No way I'm launching Drill 1 swordsman against big cities, so it only promotes if it takes some shoots from the city.
    The bonus vs fortified could lessen it a bit if there is a garrison fortified inside city, but it still isn't enough. The bonus vs city has to be better.
     
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I respectfully disagree. Let's think of Roman legions inside their fortifications. While flanking the fort may be better than attacking from just one side, it's even better if you manage to make an opening (ladders, cracks) and fight inside.
     

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