1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Tweaking Drill and Shock

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    The problem with this is that everyone would just pick drill every time. bonuses while defending are naturally going to be more useful on units that are designed to defend.

    This is the main reason I didn't choose to add a defensive choice and instead split it on city-attack and unit-attack.


    Well, the thing is if drill is remade as I suggested, you're not actually going to give up much by picking it over shock, and that extra 60% bonus versus cities might actually help you if you decide to land a few punches on the city.

    That being said I consider both 20% bonus vs cities and +25% flanking-bonus to be minor effects, more there for flavor than anything else. You get +10% CS from the promotion, plus your choice of a minor flavor effect.

    About the issue with fortified units that you keep bringing up, fortify isn't actually very useful, mostly because you can just ignore the fortified unit. It is just going to stand there, and if it actually attacks you, it is no longer fortified, meaning you can murder it.
    There is a reason why the AI very rarely uses fortification.
     
  2. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    195
    Mounted would still pretty much choose shock always and infantry would lean towards drill but attacking bonus is more powerful than defending bonus because attacking is an active decision that the player controls where as defending is a passive act. If you are playing peacefully, then you would choose drill to defend better, but if you want to conquer than you would choose shock for at least some of your units
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    A question, infantry Siege promotion is tier 2 or 3? If I can go with Drill 1 and Siege and do several damage to cities this may be valuable.
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    I think it is tier 2, but I'm not really sure. I very rarely pick it.
     
  5. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,299
    Fortification is the requirement for healing.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    It happens that I face fortified units now and then. And if you remove any vs fortified bonus or keeps it for very few units, fortified units could be more common. They can't move, but they have ZoC. Place it one tile away from an impassable tile and you protect 4 tiles with one unit.

    Volley, from siege units, already benefits from vs fortified and vs city bonuses. I'd like to think in those drill sword units as siege units, with weaker shots but more durable. As a side effect, they could take on any unit that defends as proficiently as any shock unit.

    But if you think fortifying is useless and that you won't ever see AI fortifying, why do you even care?
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Good point.

    EDIT: Actually it is not moving, but better to fortify if you can.
     
  8. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,299
    But the hotkey for it is "Fortify until healed". Unless manually skipping a turn for every single unit in need of heal is your thing.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    NOOO:lol: That's not my thing! If you must not move for healing, better be fortified. Unless fortifying is dying sooner, which is not going to happen.
    Just noting the requirement for healing is just to not act.
    So, for me:
    Drill +5% CS, +15% vs fortified (to never do more damage to fortified than non-fortified), +30%(could be discussed) vs city.
    Shock +10% CS, +25% flanking (as Funak likes)
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    First of all, there is a big difference between "not very useful" and "useless", I do use fortification extensively personally, but I think the tradeoff you make is pretty fair as it is, and it doesn't need a counter.
    The AI however really rarely fortifies, which makes sense when you think about it considering most AI units (at least on immortal/deity) pretty much always have 3 ranks of shock, which means they get a 45% bonus versus fortified units (and the bonus from fortifying is 40%).

    The main reason I do care however is that fortifying is the one advantage Longswords have over Knights and I'm trying to solve the problem that everyone keep jabbering about, that Knights beat longswords in every way.

    30% versus cities is probably too much, a 15% bonus versus fortified leaves the same existing problem as is currently in place(drill 3 having a larger bonus towards fortified units than the actual bonus for fortifying). And I really don't see a good reason why Shock should give more CS than Drill, the whole point was making them both have the same CS so the specialization choice could disregard CS.

    First of all Drill does not need a bonus versus fortified units, a 20%(30% total if you could the base CS) bonus versus cities is big enough to make it a real choice compared to 25% flanking-bonus, in fact I'm more worried about shock being too weak in this case, but that is what testing is for.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Is it? I thought it was 50%. Then you're right and this needs to be lower.
    I still think mounted units are unlikely to pick drill with those changes. You'll need siege units or drill sword units to make use of the bonus, and even so, it won't do more damage than a shock unit supported.

    I'd rather test a too high bonus vs city and nerf it later. A little improvement could be too timid for players to try.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    I give 5% more to Shock to dissuade normal units from picking Drill. Maybe it won't work as I expect. This needs the bonus vs cities to be 5% bigger than you would normally give.

    EDIT: I am still not sure that +35% vs cities (+5%CS, +30%vs cities) is enough to convince people for using sword units to take cities.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    I think 30% per promotion is enough to make people attack cities with knights, but I might be optimistic, either way as I've explained earlier 25% flanking isn't necessarily that useful either, so at the very least you will probably see people pick up drill because the chance that they will be in a situation where they want to attack a city is bigger than the use you get out of 25% better flanks.

    Anyways I get it, you don't like the suggestion, we aren't really getting anywhere by throwing the same numbers back and forth.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,711
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    It's not that I dislike your suggestion. It is that I like mine more.;)

    Let's do some math with your suggestion:
    A) melee units against a city
    Drill 1-2-3: +30% / +60% / +90%
    Shock 1-2-3: +10% / +20% / +30%
    Obviously, a shock unit has nothing to do against a city. Drill units maybe, without garrisons, without rivers, and the city built in plains. A drill 2 sword unit can do the same damage as an unpromoted siege unit, but receives some damage in return.
    B) 3 melee units against 1 fortified melee unit (-40%) in a fort (-50%)
    Drill: -50% / -40% / -30%
    Shock: -42.5% / -25% / -7.5%
    Shock is better at taking fortified units, but it's not much except for highest promotion. It's useless to attack this with melee.
    C) 2 melee units against 1 non fortified unit
    Drill: +25% / +35% / +45%
    Shock: +28.75% / +42.5% / +55.75%
    There is almost no difference. The bonus for flanking is only useful when enemies are overwhelmed.
    D) 1 melee against 1 fortified (healing) unit
    Drill: +10% / +20% / +30%
    Shock: +10% / +20% / +30%
    No difference at all.

    And now with mine:
    A) melee units against a city
    Drill: +35% / +70% / +105%
    Shock: +10% / +20% / +30%
    B) 3 melee against 1 fortified unit (-40%) in a fort (-50%)
    Drill: -45% / -30% / -15%
    Shock: -42.5% / -25% / -7.5%
    Shock is still better, but now an improved drill is not so bad.
    C) 2 melee against 1 non fortified unit
    Drill: +20% / +25% / +30%
    Shock: 28.75% / +42.5% / 55.75%
    Now drill is clearly worse in raw combat
    D) 1 melee against 1 fortified (healing) unit
    Drill: +15% / +30% / +45%
    Shock: +10% / +20% / +30%
    A chasing unit looking for solitary units trying to heal will do better with drill.

    So, in my model, drill units performs a little better against cities and are good for chasing solitary units trying to heal and barb camps, while still being worse than shock at any other kind of combat.
    In your model, drill performs very badly against fortified units and is consistently worse than shock in everything but cities.
     
  15. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    its amazing to realize with everything this mod has accomplished and the entirety of its scope here we still are; with the first promotion choice you get in the game on your starting warrior being a deeply flawed choice that's in need of a fix. how even does this happen... at what point was the open terrain and rough terrain bonuses scrapped again?
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    It was scrapped a long time ago because the AI had no clue how to handle it, constantly sending units into the wrong tiles and such, not to mention that it was fairly boring.
     
  17. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,450
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tasmania
    I have to say I see the AI fortifying ALL the time.
    They usually have a unit fortified near a barb archer just accruing experience, or position a unit over an enemies pillaged resource while other units attack the city.
    Usually these are early on in the game, presumably just to get to the next promotion.
    I myself do the barbarian archer farming with my scouts sometimes where moving will be fatal but staying put until reinforcements arrive is better.
     
  18. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    that makes sense.

    but i didnt think it was boring actually. just to reiterate, unless i missed something along the way here, your idea was between- %10 CS and a miniscule flanking bonus vs %10 CS and a miniscule city attack bonus right? honestly the terrain thing was more interesting.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,742
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Deeply flawed? Hardly. Just needs a little balance.

    G
     
  20. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    i'd like to see the better promotions available sooner for units with 2 movements points. infantry are inherently worse at gaining xp in battle since they have far less opportunity to engage compared to mobile units, and (until whatever changes G is planning take effect) at the moment they still definitely need the help. the first 2 ranks of whatever are gonna be a snooze anyway, let infantry get to some cool (powerful) choices faster.
     

Share This Page