Tweaking...

[Gedwyn]

I wanted to do some minor tweaking to the game and started to research those tweaks, but haven't come up with many answers.

Bare with me here.

Part 1: Adepts

This all started out when I made my first Adepts. I tend to make 4 in a row right away and just have them sit there for awhile. After many turns - and no, I have no idea how many - I moused over them and noticed they had gained about 4 xp.

I thought that was a little low, and started to try to figure out the math behind it. Along the way I realized I have very little knowledge of how the adept/mage xp progression works, except for the very basic: they gain xp over time or via killing.

So. I tried to figure out what the base rate of xp gain for an adept was. I noticed they were gaining .03 xp per turn after keeping an eye on them for a few turns. This seemed pretty low...doing the quick math, this guy had been hanging out in the city for 132 turns. Seems like a pretty low rate of return. I realize .03 is not the base rate as the Mage Guild in the city - and perhaps the city itself? - affects the rate.

I did do a bit of digging and found the promotions besides Potency that I didn't know affected xp rate.

I'm wondering if there is a list out there of what affects the xp rate, and if someone can tell me what the base, unmodified, rate is in the first place.

Next, I will need to figure out if I'm just an idiot and haven't been doing the right things to help their progression along - entirely possible - or if I want to tweak that base rate a bit and speed it up some. I don't think the xp rate is totally out of whack, but...it does seem slow to me.

So there's got to be an entry somewhere with this base rate. Again, I did a little digging around the forums and couldn't come up with an answer. I don't know my way around the xml files at all, so while I dug thru a few of those, I easily could have missed the necessary tag.


Part B: Sea Monsters.

Just a pet peeve of mine. I like 'em, really. But I like 'em rare. Erm...well rarer, as in not so many. On my huge map there's got to be close to 100 critters roaming the seas. I'd rather have...15, maybe 20.

Is there a way to adjust the rate at which they spawn, or spread out or to limit their number? Again, I did some xml file digging...but while I understand xml, I have absolutely no idea what I'm looking for specifically.


Part C: Gaelen.

Never seen him, starting to think I never will. I read ages ago that there was some sort of bug with building the Catacomb Libralus...but also thought that that had been ironed out.

I realize it's a low % to get his event chain, but besides adjusting the event weight (which I changed from 200 to 1000) is there anything else I can do - short of resorting to the Worldbuilder - to get this to pop?


Don't get me wrong, I love this mod and think it's great. I just wanted to make some minor adjustments. No harm in that right?

I think that's it...thanks for reading if you did, and hope starting a new thread for this was ok. I almost put this in the modding thread...but figured I might be trespassing there

 

[thapagan]

The sea monster issue is a pet peeve of mine. How about making them very very rare, but willing to attack fishing nets /blockade.....

 

[xienwolf]

Searched for the thread in the team forums where we had hammered out the final formula, but can't find it. I suppose it was mostly emails and PMs since that was designed when it was jsut Vehem and myself.

Anyway, all rates and caps are added together, so caster rate/cap adds with training rate/cap (promotions and cities basically), then it is chunked into the formula to get your XP for the turn.

((10000*(1+getCasterXPRate()))/((GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getGrowthPercent()/50)*(getExperience()+100)))

Then it is cast to an INT (truncated) at the end. And this final value is 100 times what your unit gets (so if the calculation results in a 3, then you gain 0.03 XP).

CasterXPRate is just the addition of your promotion & Building sources of XP Rates, added up. And the gamespeed growth percent is 400 for epic, 150 for marathon, 100 for normal, 67 for quick.


So if that makes sense to you, you can pop it into excel to see what your XP per turn would be. But basically, lots initially, pathetically little eventually. Hence if you want to get to Archmage, you have to promote to mage to get the nice rateboost from Channeling 2, and units who gain Potency or Unholy Taint early in life benefit greatly.

Small sideeffect of this system is that the Amurites will have a pleasant enhancement to their natural training rate due to most all of them having channeling 1 after Govannon hits them up. This only enhances their rate, not their cap though, you still have to have "permission" to gain the bonus cap from Channeling/Aptitude sources.


Sea Monsters: Now that the changelog is out I can simply say that ALL spawning of ANY Barbarian is vastly different in this next release, and I have looked quite closely at each of them to ensure they do what I would like them to do. Fewer water animals spawn than previously would have.

Gaelan: I have big plans for the event system in general. Till then, I tend to leave my hands out of it mostly. Gaelan is a PITA though, I agree with that much. Wrestled with him far too often when I started modding things. New system (someday) will make him and other events work far better.

 

[Gedwyn]

Thanks for the reply Xienwolf.

The math does make sense, and I will toy around with it a bit. It's a really minor complaint. I do like the fact that is slower now than it was with the last FFH version. It was pretty damn easy to have tons of Mages running around, and I think they needed to be rarer. But maybe not this rare

Glad to hear some work is going into Gaelen. It's a pretty neat event chain from what I hear, and an interesting character.

And all this makes me wish I had the time to delve into the game mechanics and the coding more and possibly chip in. I just don't have it unfortunately

 

[odalrick]

((10000*(1+getCasterXPRate()))/((GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getGrowthPercent()/50)*(getExperience()+100)))

Is this really correct? I thought xp gain got slower as you neared the cap.

Also, let's consider a unit without any rate boosters. I assume that means that getCasterXPRate() returns 0.

Normal speed and no cap issues...

I suppose there is no better way to display math.

10000*(1+0) / ( (100 / 50 ) * ( experience + 100 ) * 100) =
50/ ( experience + 100 )

At 0 experience: .5 XP per turn.
At 26 experience: .4 XP per turn.
At 100 experience: .25 XP per turn.

So in any situation that actually arises in game, one would get more than .4 XP per turn. I haven't played in a while so I don't know if that is reasonable. Less than 65 turns to archmage, provided timely upgrades.

 

[xienwolf]

XP doesn't slow as you approach the cap, it slows as you gain more XP. I am not sure what you are doing on the right hand side of your equation. The left hand side is exactly what I posted though. Here's a mild breakdown with the math done, for normal speed with no rate booster:

Spoiler :

Start	Will Gain
0.00	0.50
0.50	0.33
0.83	0.27
1.11	0.24
1.34	0.21
1.56	0.20
1.75	0.18
1.93	0.17
2.10	0.16
2.27	0.15
2.42	0.15
2.56	0.14
2.71	0.13
2.84	0.13
2.97	0.13
3.10	0.12
3.22	0.12
3.34	0.12
3.45	0.11
3.56	0.11
3.67	0.11
3.78	0.10
3.89	0.10
3.99	0.10
4.09	0.10
4.19	0.10
4.28	0.09
4.38	0.09
4.47	0.09
4.56	0.09
4.65	0.09
4.74	0.09
4.83	0.09
4.91	0.08
5.00	0.08
5.08	0.08
5.16	0.08
5.24	0.08
5.32	0.08
5.40	0.08
5.48	0.08
5.56	0.08
5.63	0.08
5.71	0.07
5.78	0.07
5.86	0.07
5.93	0.07
6.00	0.07
6.07	0.07
6.15	0.07
6.22	0.07
6.28	0.07
6.35	0.07
6.42	0.07
6.49	0.07
6.56	0.07
6.62	0.07
6.69	0.07
6.75	0.06
6.82	0.06
6.88	0.06
6.94	0.06
7.01	0.06
7.07	0.06
7.13	0.06
7.19	0.06
7.25	0.06
7.31	0.06
7.37	0.06
7.43	0.06
7.49	0.06
7.55	0.06
7.61	0.06
7.67	0.06
7.73	0.06
7.78	0.06
7.84	0.06
7.90	0.06
7.95	0.06
8.01	0.06
8.07	0.06
8.12	0.05
8.18	0.05
8.23	0.05
8.28	0.05
8.34	0.05
8.39	0.05
8.44	0.05
8.50	0.05
8.55	0.05
8.60	0.05
8.65	0.05
8.71	0.05
8.76	0.05
8.81	0.05
8.86	0.05
8.91	0.05
8.96	0.05
9.01	0.05
9.06	0.05
9.11	0.05
9.16	0.05
9.21	0.05
9.26	0.05
9.31	0.05
9.36	0.05
9.40	0.05
9.45	0.05
9.50	0.05
9.55	0.05
9.60	0.05
9.64	0.05
9.69	0.05
9.74	0.05
9.78	0.05
9.83	0.05
9.88	0.05
9.92	0.05
9.97	0.05
10.01	0.05
10.06	0.05
10.10	0.05
10.15	0.04
10.19	0.04
10.24	0.04
10.28	0.04
10.33	0.04
10.37	0.04
10.41	0.04
10.46	0.04
10.50	0.04
10.55	0.04
10.59	0.04
10.63	0.04

And once you hit 0.01 you gain 0.01 till your cap since we set that as the minimum.

 

[odalrick]

Now I understand, getExperience doesn't return the units experience, it returns unit experience * 100 .

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, inside the main code all experience is carried as 100 times more than it is (so as an integer instead of a decimal). It still outputs as a decimal just for cosmetic/tradition or what have you.

 

[Vehem]

Also, let's consider a unit without any rate boosters. I assume that means that getCasterXPRate() returns 0.

The other thing to consider is that each Channeling promotion does provide a rate boost, increasing with the channeling level (simulates the old "higher cap = higher rate" mechanic of the old casterXP), so the numbers will be a little larger than in the no-boost example...

 

[odalrick]

So, taking rate into consideration, an arcane adept just sitting around in a city with a Mage Guild, being upgraded as soon as possible, takes 281 turns to become an Archmage.

Add a Cave of Ancestors and an Alchemy Lab, and it takes 219 turns. Deduct 40 turns if the adept starts at level 4 due to the Cave.

A non-arcane adept in a mage guild takes 74 turns to become a mage and 386 turns to become an archmage.

In other words, the only reasonable way to get archmages is to have your mages fight. Summoners and Illusionists have an easier time with that.

Edit, some bugs in my spreadsheet:

to become archmage:
arcane adept with mage guild: 256 turns
+ cave and lab : 202 turns

normal adept + mage guild: 343 turns, 71 turns to mage

 

[xienwolf]

Hrm... I just laid out the excel again and I came up with 317 turns to archmage with mage Guild and promoting as soon as possible.

Spoiler :

TURN	XP	GAIN	RATE
0	0.00	0.88	0.75
1	0.88	0.47	0.75
2	1.34	0.37	0.75
3	1.72	0.32	0.75
4	2.04	0.29	0.75
5	2.33	0.26	0.75
6	2.59	0.24	0.75
7	2.83	0.23	0.75
8	3.06	0.22	0.75
9	3.28	0.20	0.75
10	3.48	0.20	0.75
11	3.68	0.19	0.75
12	3.86	0.18	0.75
13	4.04	0.17	0.75
14	4.22	0.17	0.75
15	4.38	0.16	0.75
16	4.55	0.16	0.75
17	4.70	0.15	0.75
18	4.86	0.15	0.75
19	5.01	0.15	0.75
20	5.15	0.14	0.75
21	5.30	0.14	0.75
22	5.43	0.14	0.75
23	5.57	0.13	0.75
24	5.70	0.13	0.75
25	5.83	0.13	0.75
26	5.96	0.13	0.75
27	6.09	0.12	0.75
28	6.21	0.12	0.75
29	6.33	0.12	0.75
30	6.45	0.12	0.75
31	6.57	0.12	0.75
32	6.68	0.11	0.75
33	6.80	0.11	0.75
34	6.91	0.11	0.75
35	7.02	0.11	0.75
36	7.13	0.11	0.75
37	7.24	0.11	0.75
38	7.34	0.10	0.75
39	7.45	0.10	0.75
40	7.55	0.10	0.75
41	7.66	0.10	0.75
42	7.76	0.10	0.75
43	7.86	0.10	0.75
44	7.96	0.10	0.75
45	8.05	0.10	0.75
46	8.15	0.10	0.75
47	8.25	0.09	0.75
48	8.34	0.09	0.75
49	8.43	0.09	0.75
50	8.53	0.09	0.75
51	8.62	0.09	0.75
52	8.71	0.09	0.75
53	8.80	0.09	0.75
54	8.89	0.09	0.75
55	8.98	0.09	0.75
56	9.06	0.09	0.75
57	9.15	0.09	0.75
58	9.24	0.09	0.75
59	9.32	0.08	0.75
60	9.41	0.08	0.75
61	9.49	0.08	0.75
62	9.58	0.08	0.75
63	9.66	0.08	0.75
64	9.74	0.08	0.75
65	9.82	0.08	0.75
66	9.90	0.08	0.75
67	9.98	0.08	0.75
68	10.06	0.11	1.45
69	10.17	0.11	1.45
70	10.28	0.11	1.45
71	10.39	0.11	1.45
72	10.50	0.11	1.45
73	10.61	0.11	1.45
74	10.71	0.10	1.45
75	10.82	0.10	1.45
76	10.92	0.10	1.45
77	11.02	0.10	1.45
78	11.12	0.10	1.45
79	11.23	0.10	1.45
80	11.33	0.10	1.45
81	11.42	0.10	1.45
82	11.52	0.10	1.45
83	11.62	0.10	1.45
84	11.72	0.10	1.45
85	11.81	0.10	1.45
86	11.91	0.09	1.45
87	12.00	0.09	1.45
88	12.10	0.09	1.45
89	12.19	0.09	1.45
90	12.29	0.09	1.45
91	12.38	0.09	1.45
92	12.47	0.09	1.45
93	12.56	0.09	1.45
94	12.65	0.09	1.45
95	12.74	0.09	1.45
96	12.83	0.09	1.45
97	12.92	0.09	1.45
98	13.01	0.09	1.45
99	13.09	0.09	1.45
100	13.18	0.09	1.45
101	13.27	0.09	1.45
102	13.35	0.09	1.45
103	13.44	0.08	1.45
104	13.52	0.08	1.45
105	13.61	0.08	1.45
106	13.69	0.08	1.45
107	13.77	0.08	1.45
108	13.86	0.08	1.45
109	13.94	0.08	1.45
110	14.02	0.08	1.45
111	14.10	0.08	1.45
112	14.18	0.08	1.45
113	14.27	0.08	1.45
114	14.35	0.08	1.45
115	14.43	0.08	1.45
116	14.50	0.08	1.45
117	14.58	0.08	1.45
118	14.66	0.08	1.45
119	14.74	0.08	1.45
120	14.82	0.08	1.45
121	14.90	0.08	1.45
122	14.97	0.08	1.45
123	15.05	0.08	1.45
124	15.13	0.08	1.45
125	15.20	0.08	1.45
126	15.28	0.08	1.45
127	15.35	0.07	1.45
128	15.43	0.07	1.45
129	15.50	0.07	1.45
130	15.58	0.07	1.45
131	15.65	0.07	1.45
132	15.72	0.07	1.45
133	15.80	0.07	1.45
134	15.87	0.07	1.45
135	15.94	0.07	1.45
136	16.01	0.07	1.45
137	16.09	0.07	1.45
138	16.16	0.07	1.45
139	16.23	0.07	1.45
140	16.30	0.07	1.45
141	16.37	0.07	1.45
142	16.44	0.07	1.45
143	16.51	0.07	1.45
144	16.58	0.07	1.45
145	16.65	0.07	1.45
146	16.72	0.07	1.45
147	16.79	0.07	1.45
148	16.86	0.07	1.45
149	16.93	0.07	1.45
150	17.00	0.07	1.45
151	17.06	0.07	1.45
152	17.13	0.07	1.45
153	17.20	0.07	1.45
154	17.27	0.07	1.45
155	17.33	0.07	1.45
156	17.40	0.07	1.45
157	17.47	0.07	1.45
158	17.53	0.07	1.45
159	17.60	0.07	1.45
160	17.67	0.07	1.45
161	17.73	0.07	1.45
162	17.80	0.07	1.45
163	17.86	0.06	1.45
164	17.93	0.06	1.45
165	17.99	0.06	1.45
166	18.06	0.06	1.45
167	18.12	0.06	1.45
168	18.18	0.06	1.45
169	18.25	0.06	1.45
170	18.31	0.06	1.45
171	18.38	0.06	1.45
172	18.44	0.06	1.45
173	18.50	0.06	1.45
174	18.56	0.06	1.45
175	18.63	0.06	1.45
176	18.69	0.06	1.45
177	18.75	0.06	1.45
178	18.81	0.06	1.45
179	18.88	0.06	1.45
180	18.94	0.06	1.45
181	19.00	0.06	1.45
182	19.06	0.06	1.45
183	19.12	0.06	1.45
184	19.18	0.06	1.45
185	19.24	0.06	1.45
186	19.30	0.06	1.45
187	19.36	0.06	1.45
188	19.42	0.06	1.45
189	19.48	0.06	1.45
190	19.54	0.06	1.45
191	19.60	0.06	1.45
192	19.66	0.06	1.45
193	19.72	0.06	1.45
194	19.78	0.06	1.45
195	19.84	0.06	1.45
196	19.90	0.06	1.45
197	19.96	0.06	1.45
198	20.02	0.06	1.45
199	20.07	0.06	1.45
200	20.13	0.06	1.45
201	20.19	0.06	1.45
202	20.25	0.06	1.45
203	20.31	0.06	1.45
204	20.36	0.06	1.45
205	20.42	0.06	1.45
206	20.48	0.06	1.45
207	20.53	0.06	1.45
208	20.59	0.06	1.45
209	20.65	0.06	1.45
210	20.70	0.06	1.45
211	20.76	0.06	1.45
212	20.82	0.06	1.45
213	20.87	0.06	1.45
214	20.93	0.06	1.45
215	20.99	0.06	1.45
216	21.04	0.06	1.45
217	21.10	0.06	1.45
218	21.15	0.06	1.45
219	21.21	0.06	1.45
220	21.26	0.06	1.45
221	21.32	0.05	1.45
222	21.37	0.05	1.45
223	21.43	0.05	1.45
224	21.48	0.05	1.45
225	21.54	0.05	1.45
226	21.59	0.05	1.45
227	21.65	0.05	1.45
228	21.70	0.05	1.45
229	21.75	0.05	1.45
230	21.81	0.05	1.45
231	21.86	0.05	1.45
232	21.91	0.05	1.45
233	21.97	0.05	1.45
234	22.02	0.05	1.45
235	22.07	0.05	1.45
236	22.13	0.05	1.45
237	22.18	0.05	1.45
238	22.23	0.05	1.45
239	22.29	0.05	1.45
240	22.34	0.05	1.45
241	22.39	0.05	1.45
242	22.44	0.05	1.45
243	22.50	0.05	1.45
244	22.55	0.05	1.45
245	22.60	0.05	1.45
246	22.65	0.05	1.45
247	22.70	0.05	1.45
248	22.76	0.05	1.45
249	22.81	0.05	1.45
250	22.86	0.05	1.45
251	22.91	0.05	1.45
252	22.96	0.05	1.45
253	23.01	0.05	1.45
254	23.06	0.05	1.45
255	23.11	0.05	1.45
256	23.16	0.05	1.45
257	23.22	0.05	1.45
258	23.27	0.05	1.45
259	23.32	0.05	1.45
260	23.37	0.05	1.45
261	23.42	0.05	1.45
262	23.47	0.05	1.45
263	23.52	0.05	1.45
264	23.57	0.05	1.45
265	23.62	0.05	1.45
266	23.67	0.05	1.45
267	23.72	0.05	1.45
268	23.77	0.05	1.45
269	23.82	0.05	1.45
270	23.87	0.05	1.45
271	23.91	0.05	1.45
272	23.96	0.05	1.45
273	24.01	0.05	1.45
274	24.06	0.05	1.45
275	24.11	0.05	1.45
276	24.16	0.05	1.45
277	24.21	0.05	1.45
278	24.26	0.05	1.45
279	24.31	0.05	1.45
280	24.35	0.05	1.45
281	24.40	0.05	1.45
282	24.45	0.05	1.45
283	24.50	0.05	1.45
284	24.55	0.05	1.45
285	24.59	0.05	1.45
286	24.64	0.05	1.45
287	24.69	0.05	1.45
288	24.74	0.05	1.45
289	24.79	0.05	1.45
290	24.83	0.05	1.45
291	24.88	0.05	1.45
292	24.93	0.05	1.45
293	24.97	0.05	1.45
294	25.02	0.05	1.45
295	25.07	0.05	1.45
296	25.12	0.05	1.45
297	25.16	0.05	1.45
298	25.21	0.05	1.45
299	25.26	0.05	1.45
300	25.30	0.05	1.45
301	25.35	0.05	1.45
302	25.40	0.05	1.45
303	25.44	0.05	1.45
304	25.49	0.05	1.45
305	25.53	0.05	1.45
306	25.58	0.05	1.45
307	25.63	0.05	1.45
308	25.67	0.05	1.45
309	25.72	0.05	1.45
310	25.76	0.05	1.45
311	25.81	0.05	1.45
312	25.86	0.05	1.45
313	25.90	0.05	1.45
314	25.95	0.05	1.45
315	25.99	0.05	1.45
316	26.04	0.06	2.45

Listing only for Adepts, and only the positive values, rate mods are:

BUILDINGS
Mage Guild = 0.25
Alchemy Lab = 0.25
Cave of Ancestors = 0.5
Planar Gate = 0.25
Full Dwarven Vault = 0.25
Overflowing Dwarven Vault = 0.5
Medicine Hut (Alchemy Lab) = 0.25

PROMOTIONS
Calcinating = 0.25
Channeling I = 0.5
Channeling II = 0.7
Channeling III = 1
Potency = 0.7
Quickened = 0.2



But the main thing which you are overlooking is Feedback XP from your summoned units. Almost every caster will wind up with the ability to summon something, and he can use them to pick off easy wins here and there for more XP to bolster himself. But yes... becoming an Archmage requires a Civilization that is arcane in nature (Cave of Ancestors, Planar Gate or Potency), and/or experience in the field.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

But yes... becoming an Archmage requires a Civilization that is arcane in nature (Cave of Ancestors, Planar Gate or Potency), and/or experience in the field.

And I think this is how it should be.

 

[odalrick]

Hrm... I just laid out the excel again and I came up with 317 turns to archmage with mage Guild and promoting as soon as possible.

Could be some issue with accumulated errors of floats. Did you remember to truncate down to two decimals at each iteration? If I turn that off I get 316 turns, after fixing some other minor bugs. Regardless, more than 300 turns, that's a long time.

Listing only for Adepts, and only the positive values, rate mods are:

BUILDINGS
Mage Guild = 0.25
Alchemy Lab = 0.25
Cave of Ancestors = 0.5
Planar Gate = 0.25
Full Dwarven Vault = 0.25
Overflowing Dwarven Vault = 0.5
Medicine Hut (Alchemy Lab) = 0.25

You may have forgotten Meditation Hall. The best case scenario, barring worldbuilder shenanigans is Mage Guild + Alchemy Lab + Cave of Ancestors = 1.

I get 202 turns, 165 of which is Mage time. And that level 6 Archmage will take 157 turns to get the next promotion.

You might as well remove the automatic xp gain from Channeling II and III, it only gives the false impression that the unit can gain a level by sitting around. Well, the 50ish turns from level 4 to 5 is vaguely possible, but that only saves about 15 turns.

But the main thing which you are overlooking is Feedback XP from your summoned units. Almost every caster will wind up with the ability to summon something, and he can use them to pick off easy wins here and there for more XP to bolster himself. But yes... becoming an Archmage requires a Civilization that is arcane in nature (Cave of Ancestors, Planar Gate or Potency), and/or experience in the field.

I thought Feedback xp was only for summoners. Anyway, that's why I mentioned summoners; Illusionists for the abundance of easy kills they produce.

And I think it's disingenuous to claim that there is any way other than battle for mages to become archmages. Arcane civs can get mages in roughly half the time of non-arcane ones, but the difference between 150 turns and 250 turns doesn't excite me. In practical turns, both are never.

If this is the way you want it, be explicit. Remove the rate gain from Channeling II and III and mention that Archmages are never made by sitting in ivory towers studying, but are forged on the battle field in their 'pedia entry.

If not, I suggest having Channeling II reduce xp from combat by 50% and adjust the xp rate model.

 

[Vehem]

And I think it's disingenuous to claim that there is any way other than battle for mages to become archmages. Arcane civs can get mages in roughly half the time of non-arcane ones, but the difference between 150 turns and 250 turns doesn't excite me. In practical turns, both are never.

If this is the way you want it, be explicit. Remove the rate gain from Channeling II and III and mention that Archmages are never made by sitting in ivory towers studying, but are forged on the battle field in their 'pedia entry.

If not, I suggest having Channeling II reduce xp from combat by 50% and adjust the xp rate model.

Hmm - "Never" is a dangerous word - and 150 vs 250 turns is a fairly significant difference... Being able to obtain the techs required for Archmagi in less than 250 turns is an impressive (and fairly dedicated) feat of research. At the end of the day, if you build a number of adepts when they first become available, and keep them locked up safe at home - they'll be ready to upgrade pretty much as soon as an Arcane civ gets the techs, or potentially with a slight delay if a non-Arcane civ beelines Strength of Will...

Archmagi in the first 300 turns of the game are a very, very potent unit with the right spells. It's possible to create them in a little over that time at no risk - which will be of use to certain play styles.

EDIT:

I thought Feedback xp was only for summoners. Anyway, that's why I mentioned summoners; Illusionists for the abundance of easy kills they produce.

It should be 25% of normal combat XP granted to the caster for non-summoners and 50% for summoner trait leaders. Xienwolf is checking the code to make sure that was the case (was originally just summoners, but I think we decided to change it fairly early on).

 

[xienwolf]

Excel attached for playing with the numbers. Toy with things and see if you can tweak the rates or even formula to get about what should be desired for turns between each level.

 

[odalrick]

First of all, I want to mention I'm not complaining as such. I'm just pointing out what I perceive to be the effects of the current system.

Hmm - "Never" is a dangerous word - and 150 vs 250 turns is a fairly significant difference...

No, it isn't, because if I want Archmages, I need to start a war and fight with my mages. The xp gains from combat quickly dwarfs any I get from sitting around doing nothing.

Being able to obtain the techs required for Archmagi in less than 250 turns is an impressive (and fairly dedicated) feat of research. At the end of the day, if you build a number of adepts when they first become available, and keep them locked up safe at home - they'll be ready to upgrade pretty much as soon as an Arcane civ gets the techs, or potentially with a slight delay if a non-Arcane civ beelines Strength of Will...

Archmagi in the first 300 turns of the game are a very, very potent unit with the right spells. It's possible to create them in a little over that time at no risk - which will be of use to certain play styles.

If I want an early archmage, I'll be going after one of the heroes. Less research and no need to mature adepts.

And yes, those early adepts I build to cast Inspiration may have had time to become archmages when I have had time to research Strength of Will.

Of course that never happens, since the moment they become mages I give them an offensive spell and assign them to the army. Where most of their experience comes from experimenting on enemy prisoners.

@xienwolf
I don't think the current system is perfect, but it is certainly good enough.

But, since you asked:

Spoiler :

How many turns should a normal adept spend being an adept?
Currently 71 turns. Sounds like a lot to me.
I'd say about 50, down to 30 if you're set up for it.

How many turns should a normal mage spend being a mage?
Currently 242 turns. Too much, makes passive experience pointless.

How many turns should an arcane mage spend being a mage?
Currently 165 turns.

Make it about 100 turns, coupled with a lessening of the importance of combat. 150 turns for non-arcane civs.

Should archmages learn anything without combat?
Currenty a level 6 amurite archmage takes 157 turns to get a new level. So, no.

This is my biggest issue. Once you become an archmage, and to a lesser extent mage, you stop learning. Maybe this is intentional; they graduated, now it's time to put their skills to use. I'd prefer that they continued their research at roughly the same rate. I mean, why does it take the archmage 157 turns to learn Enchanted Weapons, when a fresh adept can learn the exact same spell in 2 turns?

So, I'd make experience gained be a flat rate, some mucking with my spreadsheet about made me think .10 xp per turn modified by rate is good.

( 1+getCasterXPRate() ) * 1000 / GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getGrowthPercent()

Drop all rate boosts from channeling promotions and drop Potency to .25 . All arcane building rate boost should be halved, except Mage Guild. Channeling II gains -50% experience from combat.

Late game it will take about 100 turns for an amurite wizard to mature to an archmage. Still slower than fighting, but comparable.

Maybe add a new building to that can only be built by archmages. Ivory Tower, +.5 experience gain for arcane, some hammers and research. Maybe make the exact stats depend on the archmage, hammers for enchantment promotions, military production for combat, beakers for mind, gold for earth...

 

[zup]

I had some nice results with increasing the exp limit for channeling and potency. I was gaining one xp per turn for my adepts (before decimal xp). I wanted them to become superarchmagi who can cast all spells and have all other promos as well, kinda.

It was all well and good until I figured how broken it made the Elohim. Beacon of Sirona for spiritual trait and then just spam monks.

I did not change it again.

 

[WarKirby]

Monks aside, that sounds fun.

I think it starts to really take too long to level up after a while. 157 turns for an archmage to level up, just seems silly.

 

[Iceciro]

I'll agree - I think there should be a few ways to shorten that time.

I'd actually **really** like to see an Arcane University National Wonder that lets mages train at a respectable rate in that one city. It could produce and Unhealth given the weird experiments going on there at all times of the day/night and random miscasts. Maybe it should produce a little science, too.

 

[Vehem]

I had some nice results with increasing the exp limit for channeling and potency. I was gaining one xp per turn for my adepts (before decimal xp). I wanted them to become superarchmagi who can cast all spells and have all other promos as well, kinda.

I think it starts to really take too long to level up after a while. 157 turns for an archmage to level up, just seems silly.

I'll agree - I think there should be a few ways to shorten that time.

Tweaked Channeling 1 and 2 up a small amount (0.5 -> 0.6 and 0.7->0.8).

Also, from the next patch, every Level 1 sphere promotion (and the Spell Extension 1) promotion will each grant a bonus to XP gain rate, equal to half of the rate that Channeling 1 gives. That means diversifying your magical studies instead of training in Combat related skills allow you to reach Archmage considerably faster. Level 2 and 3 sphere promotions do not give the same benefit. It's the reward for having several mana types and studying each a little to better understand magic as a whole. Specializing grants powerful spells, but a diverse study grants better understanding.

Govannon being able to train those spheres also gives the Amurites a significant boost to the rate at which they can train up new mages.

(Xienwolf's idea - I just implemented it a minute ago).