Two IDF soldiers 'punished' for using child human shields

5 years would be the minimum for me.
 
I don't know, if they got 5 years or something I'd have been happier about it. If the child died, I'd say the same as murder.
 
What's the ordinary charges for using human shields and attempted murder of a child?
 
I sympathize with Israel alot, actually. I just know enough about human decency that I can tell you that using a child as a human shield is not a good thing, whoever does it.

Great. When you can quote me saying the opposite then we can talk about that instead of what I actually said.

And frankly? Israelis and Palestinians are exactly the same. They're all people, some of whom are complete human garbage, and most of whom just want to live their lives in peace. Objectifying Israelis as better than Palestinians somehow is complete bullcrap, and does nothing but stoke the hatred.

Or more accurately its simple reality, demonstrated as such by countless real world examples.

Really?

Because other people seem to think you're saying exactly that.

Thats nice, quote me.

I'm not outraged at this, and in fact I'm more depressed at how often I'm hearing about horrible things being done (by both sides) in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Please give me an analogous Israeli action to Munich. There are a dozen more like it that are equally impossible to find analogies for.

I am, however, in disbelief at some of the things you've been saying.

No, you are in disbelief of reality or your imagination unless you want to quote me.

You'd think everyone on most of the forums out there would be able to at least unanimously agree that using children as human shields is something that deserves punishment...

Please quote where I said something indicated it doesn't.
 
What's the ordinary charges for using human shields and attempted murder of a child?

Depends on how they charge it.

Under the UCMJ most appropriate charge is probably 'Reckless Endangerment' and carries a maximum sentence of only 1 year confinement.

What they did doesnt meet the criteria for 'attempted murder', but in reading the elements of reckless endangerment - well, thats spot right on.
 
Depends on how they charge it.

Under the UCMJ most appropriate charge is probably 'Reckless Endangerment' and carries a maximum sentence of only 1 year confinement.

What they did doesnt meet the criteria for 'attempted murder', but in reading the elements of reckless endangerment - well, thats spot right on.
I would think reckless endangement of a child would carry more than 1 year. Plus, if they possessed a weapon while commiting the crime, that's a five year mandatory add-on in civilan courts. Don't know how soft the military is on that crime.
 
I would think reckless endangement of a child would carry more than 1 year.

You can think what you want. Thats what the UCMJ says under maximum punishment for the offense.

So, like I said, under the UCMJ, 1 year tops.

Plus, if they possessed a weapon while commiting the crime, that's a five year mandatory add-on in civilan courts.

They are soldiers Jolly. At least in the USA this would be a military courts issue.

Don't know how soft the military is on that crime.

Sentencing for offenses in the UCMJ may not correspond with certain state charges, but I gurantee you we punish people for a lot of things civilians take for granted to make up for it.
 
1 year is far too lenient. If that's the maximum sentence for using a child as a human shield in the US, I despair.
 
Great. When you can quote me saying the opposite then we can talk about that instead of what I actually said.

So you at least agree with that?

Thank God.

Or more accurately its simple reality, demonstrated as such by countless real world examples.

So let me get this straight, you're saying the the Israeli people are better in general than the Palestinian people?

Take note that I'm not talking about their governments, or their militaries, or whatever their resident extremists have done: I'm talking about the normal civilians.

Thats nice, quote me.

*Points to the other people who think that's what you were implying*

When other people think you're saying something, it just miiiight be because it sounded like you were saying it.

If it wasn't, then fine.

Please give me an analogous Israeli action to Munich. There are a dozen more like it that are equally impossible to find analogies for.

Well, the obvious answer is that using children as human shields comes pretty close.

That said, I don't think past actions by either side are relevant when it comes to saying what the IDF soldiers did was reprehensible, and I'd be saying the same thing if Hamas/Fatah did the same.

And I wasn't trying to say that their actions were of equally horrible magnitude either, as I don't particularly enjoy spending my time contemplating atrocities. I was simply making the point that reports of horrific violence have sadly become routine in the region.

No, you are in disbelief of reality or your imagination unless you want to quote me.

The bit above about Israelis being better people than Palestinians is an example.

Your essentially defending human shields by bringing up Munich is another.

Please quote where I said something indicated it doesn't.

So we can at least agree that regardless of past actions from both sides, using a child as a human shield is a bad thing.

I'm depressed I even have to clarify that with you.
 
1 year is far too lenient. If that's the maximum sentence for using a child as a human shield in the US, I despair.

Thats only for that particular charge. Other charges might indeed apply, but it wouldnt necessarily mean the various sentences on the charges would be served in sequence or not.
 
You can think what you want. Thats what the UCMJ says under maximum punishment for the offense.
You could probably charge assault in this case and get up to 8 years:

(7) Assault consummated by a battery upon a child under 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(8) Assault with a dangerous weapon or other means of force to produce death or grievous bodily harm.


(a) When committed with a loaded firearm. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 8 years.
 
So you at least agree with that?

Thank God.

There is no reason this is even in question other than you being predisposed to see what you want to see. Nothing in what I said was in direct reply to the incident other than to note that in Israel people do go to trial for this while in Gaza they do not. Nothing about that observation even remotely points to absolving the accused of guilt.

So let me get this straight, you're saying the the Israeli people are better in general than the Palestinian people?

Jesus, where the hell are you coming up with this stuff. READ WHAT I WRITE. There is no secret messages in there, I typed what I did for a reason.

Take note that I'm not talking about their governments, or their militaries, or whatever their resident extremists have done: I'm talking about the normal civilians.

I am talking about them all inclusively, as nations.

*Points to the other people who think that's what you were implying*

If you can't quote it, then I didn't say it. I could not care less what people willfully convince themselves of in spite of quotable posts.

When other people think you're saying something, it just miiiight be because it sounded like you were saying it.

If it wasn't, then fine.

Or they are doing what you were doing and just reading what they want because what I did say was inconvenient to their world view?

Well, the obvious answer is that using children as human shields comes pretty close.

Wow.

So let me get this straight. I couple guys and one innocent victim in a war zone is "close" to taking over a compound with a dozen odd terrorists executing a premeditated and meticulously planned attack during an international event symbolizing peace in order to maximize your international exposure while executing multiple helpless victims in the furtherance of a despicable cause in the first place?

This event might be horrible, but it doesn't hold a candle to Munich. Or any number of aircraft hijackings. Or any of the rocket attacks on Israel. Or any of the outrages the Palestinians commit on each other. Or any of the bus/school/synagogue/etc. suicide bombings. The list goes on and on.

That said, I don't think past actions by either side are relevant when it comes to saying what the IDF soldiers did was reprehensible, and I'd be saying the same thing if Hamas/Fatah did the same.

Thats great, and I agree. That has nothing to do with what I posted earlier.

And I wasn't trying to say that their actions were of equally horrible magnitude either, as I don't particularly enjoy spending my time contemplating atrocities. I was simply making the point that reports of horrific violence have sadly become routine in the region.

You just said it was near equal to Munich above. Regardless, if you want to approach and solve this problem from a position with a foundation in reality you have to accept the fact that the Israelis are not the fount of atrocities in the region. By a long shot. Pretending otherwise is counterproductive.

The bit above about Israelis being better people than Palestinians is an example.

The Israelis as a collective group are better people than the Palestinians as a collective group. This is not a conflict between individuals. The Israelis and Palestinians understand this, I am not sure why it so hard for people such as yourself to do the same.

Your essentially defending human shields by bringing up Munich is another.

I did no such thing and your line of thought makes absolutely no sense.

So we can at least agree that regardless of past actions from both sides, using a child as a human shield is a bad thing.

I'm depressed I even have to clarify that with you.

You only had to clarify it because you were doing impressive mental gymnastics to avoid accepting the overt meaning of my actual words in order to manufacture some completely unfathomable personal interpretation. Just read what I write and take it at its literal meaning from now on and you can avoid this.
 
What's the ordinary charges for using human shields and attempted murder of a child?

Well, I probably should point out taht considering we don't know the circumstances we don't know whether it was 'putting a child at some risk to his life' or 'putting a child in a position where he was pretty much going to die'. I don't think it's the same as using a human shield, but it's certainly nothing close to conduct that a civilized military force should be using NOR is it condusive to getting anywhere. Did these two idiots not listen in O Group or something when he said 'right lads, we're getting the people on our side here'
 
Please give me an analogous Israeli action to Munich. There are a dozen more like it that are equally impossible to find analogies for
:lol: Seriously?

How about when they expelled 700,000 Palestinians during the 1948 War?
How about when they destroyed 80% of Palestinian villages in their new country to deny them any hope of returning after the war?
How about when they illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip for 40+ years now?
How about when they continually destroyed their homes to make room for illegal settlements?
How about when they continually took control of important resources like water away from the Palestinians?
How about how they continue to have segregated schools in the 21st century?
How about when they refuse to recognize Palestinians towns in their own country and don't provide them with basic utilities?
How about the fact that there are almost 5 million Palestinian refugees because of them?

You're right, it is impossible to find an analogous event because the destruction and terror Israel has imposed upon the Arab populations are far greater than groups like Hamas could ever hope to do.

Your defense of apartheid doesn't speak well for you I must say.
 
Or maybe you just don't like my answer.

Edit: If you're looking for a specific event Deir Yassin is a pretty obvious one.
 
We got some apologists for Israel here!
 
You could probably charge assault in this case and get up to 8 years:

(7) Assault consummated by a battery upon a child under 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

Except there was no battery in this particular case was there?

(8) Assault with a dangerous weapon or other means of force to produce death or grievous bodily harm.

(a) When committed with a loaded firearm. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 8 years.

Includes the elements:

"That the accused attempted to do, offered to do, or did bodily harm to a certain person.'

"That the attempt, offer, or bodily harm was done with unlawful force or violence".

"That the weapon used was a loaded firearm".

Perhaps there were some issues in proving the elements in the case? Given the fact that Hamas has used children as weapons in this war previously wouldnt necessarily preclude the use of weapons as legal justification. That being the case, there could be some potential pitfalls in establishing the offer of assault in this situation.
 
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