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Two IDF soldiers 'punished' for using child human shields

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    What is the suitable punishment for soldlers being obvious cowards and war criminals? Probation, of course:

    A "hard war"? Against innocent civilians and a handful of "armed" men? It sounds like the sort of absurd argument which is so popular around here with the defenders of Israel no matter what they do. The Hamas are "terrorists" so the Israeli soldiers essentially have a free pass to do whatever they wish, because Israeli life is obviously much more precious than Palestinian life.
     
  2. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    I would say that grabbing the kid to use them as a shield would cross the fairly thin line from assault to battery. Also, using a show of force via gunpoint would get you to the weapons charge for an unjustified assault. These are UCMJ, not Israeli law btw.
     
  3. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Where does it say in the story that they grabbed the kid or touched him at all?

    Its easy to establish a nexus for justified use of the weapons if your enemy is known to use children as weapons.

    What was wrong here was forcing him to open something they thought boobytrapped. Pointing a rifle at him wasnt the issue since even children in this conflict have been known to be used as weapons by Hamas.

    I know. I have the MCM sitting right here on my desk.

    By all means point out anyone who is defending what these two soldiers did. Since you allege there are people here that will 'defend them no matter what they do' please point out the culprits that think what these soldiers did was ok.

    I await your proofs to backup your allegations.
     
  4. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    A touching isn't required. I would put this as the equivalent of making someone drink poisen (or what they think is poisen). The forced contact with something that the victim does not want contact with would bring it up to battery.
    The reason for pointing the weapon at the child is what makes it assualtive and not mere militray use.
     
  5. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Under the UCMJ the element for battery is 'did bodily harm', so I think your premise falls a bit short there.

    Again, its still a conflict zone, and the requirement to prove offer of assault is that the act is being done without legal justification. As Hamas has indeed used children as weapons in this conflict, were the soldiers legally justified in pointing their weapons at him? Quite possibly. What was not legally justified was making him open possible booby-trapped items, thus the charges they were brought up on.
     
  6. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    It caused involuntary urination.
     
  7. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Ok, lets read.

    I found this confusing, so I asked you what you meant by Palestinian apologists.

    I was, and still am, am assuming the choice of "Palestinian" was a little unfortunate, so I gave you an option to specify. But it's not that odd that someone reading what you wrote might get the wrong impression.

    At least, I hope I'm right when I say it's the wrong impression.
     
  8. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Is that your criteria for bodily harm?

    So, your argument is that the soldiers should spend 8 years in jail for making the kid pee?
     
  9. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    It doesn't take much to move from assault to battery. But since the gun assualt is 8 years max and child battery is only two years max, I would be more inclined to go for a conviction on the gun assault. Sure you can legally use the gun in self defense or a legitimate military engagement. But to use it to force a child into a human shield situation is clearly across the line.

    Just becuase I can legally carry a concealed handgun and even legally use it in some instances does not make me above the law when I use it in a way that violates a statute.
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    This forum is full of posts by people from the far-right defending the acts of the Israelis no matter what they are. :lol:

    What kind of "logical fallacy" is that? Do you have any "proof" that Hamas cowardly used Israeli children as shields as these Israeli soldiers did? Or are you suggesting that Hamas bring these Israelis to trial for obvious war crimes against civilian children?
     
  11. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    The soldiers believed the bag to be booby trapped, and still asked the child to open it. Surely that means they intended bodily harm, even if they didn't actually cause harm in the end...
     
  12. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    Let them hold a trial for these soldiers and we can find out.
     
  13. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Sounds more like "deliberate endangerment", rather then "reckless endangerment".
     
  14. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    Well the debate is whether they thought it was, in which case they wanted to blow up a child, or suspected it might be, in which case they're cowards but they didn't actually intend to get anyone hurt. Morally that's a big one, legally it shouldn't be. Bang 'em up Sarn't-Major!
     
  15. Silurian

    Silurian Deity

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    From The Independent
    So they took the boy from where he was hiding in the basement to a room which had two bags in it. So the boy was not carrying the bag or had anything to do with the bag. The soldiers took the boy to a place they believed to be dangerous.
    And they assaulted him when he could not open one of the bags.

    Three months suspended plus demotion does seem a bit light to me.
     
  16. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    Well the bags were in his house so he did have something to do with them, and may have done something if he knew they were booby-trapped. Still dickheads mind.
     
  17. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    They are complete and utter scumbags and the Israeli system has failed to punish them.
     
  18. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    http://www.middleeastpiece.com/1948war_deiryassin.html

    I'm assuming Patroklos is asking you and others to state an example in which Israeli civilians did something comparable to the Munich massacre.

    The only example that comes to my mind is the cave of the Patriarchs massacre, but the Israeli guilty of the crime has been sentenced and put to prison, with the Israeli population denouncing him as an insane fanatic.
     
  19. Silurian

    Silurian Deity

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    My mistake, it was an appartment block. So no evidence that the bags were in his home or someone elses.

    Another incident

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...eAtt0P&usg=AFQjCNHBitAKqJuoZBMDh367e6wXHQFBVQ

     
  20. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Full eh?

    Do you see anyone defending their acts here in this thread?

    @RR: No, they did punish them, just not harshly enough.
     

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