Two major suggestions for RI

Nikas Kunitz

Warlord
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
Messages
156
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Yoshkar-Ola, Russian Federation
I understand clearly that development of the mod largely stopped, regarding addition of new content. So, I won't suggest things like adding new civs, even though I consider RI to miss huge potential in that regard. However, after I pointed to my issues with the city names, and before other smaller tweaks I would describe later, I wanted to atleast state two major things that greatly worsen experience of playing RI for me, and what I see as a potential solutions.

Limit religions
There's a good decade old modmod that limits religions to specific civs, historically-culturally fitting ones, using system of free duplicated techs blocked to civs similarly to the tech that founds Orthodoxy. As routinely seeing religions being founded by completely unrelated civs heavily breaks immersion for me, I used to routinely use it back when I was actively playing and modmodding RI 6 years ago, making it even more restrictive actually. Additional reason was/is playing on world maps, where the location where a religion is founded pretty much determines what part of the world will be dominated by it (something like Buddhism founded by a civ in Europe makes Europe dominated by it. I've seen that much more often than Christianity dominated Europe). In vanilla Civ4 I just use "choose religions" to largely avoid this issue, as religions are pretty much the same in it. But the thing is that in RI religions are fully unique, and aren't replaceable like that. Also, other mods often have dozen of new religions, sometimes with their own founding mechanics, making it lesser of an issue in them as well. But RI has only 7 fully fleshed religions, making every one of them a major part of gameplay.
I remember seeing and I know your stance on this modmod, Walter, you prefer unrestricted religions for more varied gameplay, even at cost of historical immersion. However, as I started to play a bit with RI again recently, I not only again rammed into the issues I stated above, but noticed new ones as well. Civs, especially led by "spiritual" leaders with heavy religion favour, particularly the ones who nominally like later religions, like Isabella for Christianity, or Umar for Islam, not only would found ahistorical religions, usually the early ones (as AI just favours all "religious" techs, without priority for their "preferred" late religions, or avoidance of others), they also often found 2-3 religions! Out of 7 total, that deprives other civs of founding a religion of their own, regardless if it is historical or ahistorical. I think that has major negative impact on gameplay, especially considering that a civ in RI cannot fully use a religion if it isn't its state one. Among other examples, the most notable one I remember is seeing Isabella (who inherited her sole "overwhelming" religion flavour from vanilla) found Judaism, Buddhism and Taoism, and not Christianity, that was founded by another civ and remained a minor religion, as Isabella made sure to spread her religions everywhere, as she also occasionally converted back and forth between the three religions she founded.
So, I suggest implementing restriction on founding religions one way or another. As I understand that freedom of gameplay is a priority, and most other players seem to not have such strong issues with religions as described above, I think it optimally should be made a selectable game option. Implementation of religion restriction by "dummy" techs in the modmod I described above is easy, but my modding experience is not enough to see if it is possible to make it a toggleable game option.
Another suggestion is religion founding system that I want/ed to implement in my own mod. It also uses "dummy" techs (and they also can be restricted as described above) named as religions, that require specific techs in the tree, but cannot be researched manually. Instead, they can be researched only by a great prophet, making them necessary for founding a religion. For it to properly work, all pagan temples also should provide a priest slot, as without it, mostly only wonders can provide great prophet points before temples of religions become available. Considering uniqueness and significance of each religion in RI, I think such system would fit well. As such, this religion founding system combines tech requirement from Civ4 with great prophet requirement from Civ5.

Civ starting plot bias
While implementing restricted religions atleast for my own singleplayer is easy, another problem is much more complex. Of all the reasons why RI hadn't totally become my favourite mod, this one is the greatest. In around 90% cases I abort a newly started game on a random map simply because starting location, terrain, features and resources, do not fit with my civ. In my recent return to RI that led to me starting the game almost always as a random civ, because desire to play a specific civ leads only to rolling unfitting (that is painfully fitting for another civ!) location again and again. This problem applies not only to RI, but to vanilla and others mods as well. As a historian, I would say that in real history civilisation(s) largely arose as an adaptation of a society to specific geographic conditions, so that's the Nile river surrounded by deserts that created Egypt, and Aegean coast and island that created Greece. So seeing a civ in a completely unfitting location destroys any immersion from the start, and even if I eventually will get a fitting location for my own civ (and actually finally start playing), some or many of other civs still would start in wrong geographic conditions.
In RI this problem is much more acute, as practically all civs have strong synergy with specific terrain, features or resources, from unique improvements, buildings and units, to the many or most of regular units having some combat bonus in specific features. What's the point in playing a civ with strong bonuses in jungle or desert, if you start in a tundra? As such, I suggest implementing starting plot bias in one way or another.
The only mod that I played and well know having starting bias, is Civ4 Reimagined. Couple of years ago, I played this mod and even further improved the starting bias. As I'm very interested in implementing starting bias in my own mod, I checked it in Reimagined. The uncompiled gamecore source folder is packed in together with mod itself. In it, I searched and found some blocks of code implementing starting bias. In best scenario, just copying and recompiling it will work in another mod. Anyway, someone with better understanding of modding and code surely will get sense of it better than me.
 
Thanks for a detailed write-up; here's my take on those suggestions:
However, as I started to play a bit with RI again recently, I not only again rammed into the issues I stated above, but noticed new ones as well. Civs, especially led by "spiritual" leaders with heavy religion favour, particularly the ones who nominally like later religions, like Isabella for Christianity, or Umar for Islam, not only would found ahistorical religions, usually the early ones (as AI just favours all "religious" techs, without priority for their "preferred" late religions, or avoidance of others), they also often found 2-3 religions! Out of 7 total, that deprives other civs of founding a religion of their own, regardless if it is historical or ahistorical. I think that has major negative impact on gameplay, especially considering that a civ in RI cannot fully use a religion if it isn't its state one. Among other examples, the most notable one I remember is seeing Isabella (who inherited her sole "overwhelming" religion flavour from vanilla) found Judaism, Buddhism and Taoism, and not Christianity, that was founded by another civ and remained a minor religion, as Isabella made sure to spread her religions everywhere, as she also occasionally converted back and forth between the three religions she founded.
I wonder if the experience you're describing was pre-3.8 or on 3.8. One of the changes I implemented in 3.8 causes AI to strongly disfavour techs that found new religions if they already have a holy city. If you saw what you described above on 3.8, then something's still not working there.
Another suggestion is religion founding system that I want/ed to implement in my own mod. It also uses "dummy" techs (and they also can be restricted as described above) named as religions, that require specific techs in the tree, but cannot be researched manually. Instead, they can be researched only by a great prophet, making them necessary for founding a religion. For it to properly work, all pagan temples also should provide a priest slot, as without it, mostly only wonders can provide great prophet points before temples of religions become available. Considering uniqueness and significance of each religion in RI, I think such system would fit well. As such, this religion founding system combines tech requirement from Civ4 with great prophet requirement from Civ5.
That sounds very logical, and decent from gameplay perspective (another use for great prophets), but I'm worried about AI in this regard - and also I am not sure how gating early/late religions would work in this case. The balance in RI is such that all religions have their rather specific places on the tech tree.
While implementing restricted religions atleast for my own singleplayer is easy, another problem is much more complex. Of all the reasons why RI hadn't totally become my favourite mod, this one is the greatest. In around 90% cases I abort a newly started game on a random map simply because starting location, terrain, features and resources, do not fit with my civ. In my recent return to RI that led to me starting the game almost always as a random civ, because desire to play a specific civ leads only to rolling unfitting (that is painfully fitting for another civ!) location again and again. This problem applies not only to RI, but to vanilla and others mods as well. As a historian, I would say that in real history civilisation(s) largely arose as an adaptation of a society to specific geographic conditions, so that's the Nile river surrounded by deserts that created Egypt, and Aegean coast and island that created Greece. So seeing a civ in a completely unfitting location destroys any immersion from the start, and even if I eventually will get a fitting location for my own civ (and actually finally start playing), some or many of other civs still would start in wrong geographic conditions.
In RI this problem is much more acute, as practically all civs have strong synergy with specific terrain, features or resources, from unique improvements, buildings and units, to the many or most of regular units having some combat bonus in specific features. What's the point in playing a civ with strong bonuses in jungle or desert, if you start in a tundra? As such, I suggest implementing starting plot bias in one way or another.
I know that'd be great to have, but the way the starting plot assignment is handled in Civ 4, it's an extremely hard thing to properly implement - no wonder you saw almost no mods that did that. It's not impossible I guess, but very, very challenging for someone of my level (which is definitely not God-tier). Did you know that starting plots are already handled on a non-random basis, and are a major component behind the difficulty levels?
 
I wonder if the experience you're describing was pre-3.8 or on 3.8. One of the changes I implemented in 3.8 causes AI to strongly disfavour techs that found new religions if they already have a holy city. If you saw what you described above on 3.8, then something's still not working there.
I think you may not worry, it was on 3.7, so your change likely works. Though I just manually implemented simple religion limit by "dummy" techs, so now I won't tell for sure, hehe.
That sounds very logical, and decent from gameplay perspective (another use for great prophets), but I'm worried about AI in this regard - and also I am not sure how gating early/late religions would work in this case. The balance in RI is such that all religions have their rather specific places on the tech tree.
I think AI should work fine? Is there some additional weight number on what techs AI would spend a GP? I think the problem might be that AI would just spend the prophet on the first available religion tech, regardless of its favourite religion (and the result is the same as with current "who researches the tech first", and Hindu Isabella). Considering the length of RI games, gating shouldn't be so much of an issue, if all pagan temples provide a prophet slot, it just would make it circumstantially delayed, but not longer than 100-150 turns I guess. Anyway, that's just a suggestion, I just wish there was a limited religions option, one way or another. But I can implement it myself, so not a global problem after all.
I know that'd be great to have, but the way the starting plot assignment is handled in Civ 4, it's an extremely hard thing to properly implement - no wonder you saw almost no mods that did that. It's not impossible I guess, but very, very challenging for someone of my level (which is definitely not God-tier). Did you know that starting plots are already handled on a non-random basis, and are a major component behind the difficulty levels?
Yeah, I noticed that starting plots are not just the "best random spot" and there's more going on behind it. Anyway, I stated what I could, pointing to the mod that implements it. Again, RI is most likely the mod where starting bias would be most welcome among all other Civ4 mods, but it lived well for 20 years without it, so that's fine to be without this feature.
 
Civ starting plot bias

This was altogether an interesting read! In fact, I was just discussing this issue with another player earlier today, then ironically stumbled upon your detailed post about it later.

As one with virtually no modding ability besides editing XML values and text, this is a total shot in the dark, but my tentative thought was that maybe the starting tile of the settler could somehow be tethered to the base terrain or feature? If it concerns only the tile itself, it may be simple enough to implement, but on scripts like Totestra, you're likely to find at least somewhat appropriate terrain in the surrounding area, even if it remains imperfect. If this was tied to leaders, then you could have, for instance, all Seafaring leaders start on a coastal plot, and if latitude could be factored in (as it does exist somewhere, because you can't build Sea Resorts outside of the tropics in RI, or the Space Elevator outside of them in vanilla) then civs with origins in cold or temperate climates would stop spawning in jungles, and those which historically developed in tropical environments like Maya or Austronesians would reliably start there.

Anyway, just a thought. Again, I have no idea how this actually computes or how disruptive such a change would be to the rest of map script logic, but I thought I would make the suggestion, in case it's useful at all or if Walter thinks it's a good idea for RI.
 
To oversimplify (please don't nitpick the specifics, this is a gross oversimplification to illustrate the method Civ 4 uses) what is a more involved process, there is a rather finite number of good starting spots on a given map, comparable (as in 2-3x I'd say) to the number of civs. They are all made into a list which is then ranked and sorted by their quality - and it's one of the (normally unseen) fundamentals behind difficulty levels, as then your difficulty level determines something like (again don't take this literally) "you play Monarch, so you get a starting spot at 30% from the bottom of the list", which obviously only works if the ranking scale for starting spots applies universally for all civs. It would also means that without completely redesigning the system while biasing it on a per civ basis, at most difficulty levels (certainly at the levels most players choose) it'd actively work against your civ selection by discarding the best starting spots for your civ.
 
As one with virtually no modding ability besides editing XML values and text, this is a total shot in the dark, but my tentative thought was that maybe the starting tile of the settler could somehow be tethered to the base terrain or feature?
In Civilization Reimagined there are civilization-based bias. They are based on terrain, features and resources, and can be both + and - , for both encouraging and dissuading. As much as I observed, it just influences what starting plot is picked up, based on the biased terrain, features and resources in the fat cross (maybe whole 5x5 square also including the corners). So like, Khmer have +3 to grass, -5 to desert and tundra, +3 to jungles, +5 to elephants and so on. This obviously includes changes to civilizationinfos and civilizationinfoschema, along with gamecore.dll of course.
Reimagined has another problem that pretty much negates starting bias -- like some other mods, and it seems it is from vanilla, it uses "balancing out" starting plots by converting "bad" terrain like desert and tundra into grassland, and also planting additional trees. It pretty much ruins any desert biased start. This "balancing out" feature is not part of the bias though.
 
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