Two New Unit Variations: a Roman & Eastern Cataphract

Kryten

Smeee heeeeed
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When utahjazz7 was creating the excellent Heavy Cataphract unit, there were several suggestions about alternative helmets. Well, prompted by Xen, I have taken the liberty of using this animation to create two alternative figures.
(So they are not really ‘new’ units, but just crude variations of utahjazz’s unit)

Here is utahjazz7’s original figure:-



….and it can be found HERE.
This is perfect for the Byzantines during the period between 500 to 1200 AD.

And here is a Roman Cataphractari variation:-



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Roman_Cataphractari.zip (950 Kb)

Suggested stats: 3-3-2, costs 60, requires iron, and is available with Construction.
“Although the Late Roman Empire began using some Persian style cataphract units about 275 AD, these were very few until Constantine became sole emperor in 324 AD. The main problem with the Imperial Roman army from 0 to 300 AD was the fact that they had no reserves, as almost every legion and auxiliary was stationed on the frontier. This meant that if defeated, or if a major barbarian invasion had to be repelled, or during one of the many civil wars that plagued the empire, the only way of raising a large force was to strip troops from the boarder, thus leaving them weak and vulnerable to further attacks. The Late Roman army of 300 to 500 AD redressed this problem by creating reserve field armies called ‘Comitani’. Consisting of fast moving cavalry and Auxilia Palatinia infantry, these new field armies became the rapid mobile forces of the late empire, while the old legionaries and auxiliaries became little more than a frontier militia called ‘Limitani’. After 500 AD, following the collapse and fall of the Western Roman Empire, the East Roman/Byzantine Empire improved their cataphractari by arming them with bows in addition to their long lances.”

And here is the Eastern Cataphract variation:-



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Eastern_Cataphract.zip (820 Kb)

Suggested stats: 3-2-2, costs 50, requires iron, and is available with Monarchy. I also suggest that they be ‘wheeled’, so that cannot enter jungles, forests and mountains.
(Being so heavily armoured, these should really have a defence of 3….but giving the Persians an mounted unit with a defence of 3 would encourage the AI and players to use them to defend cities with, which was certainly NOT their purpose)
“Cataphracts were first used by the Seleucid Persians, so named because of the Macedonian general who took control of this region following the death of Alexander the Great. By 200 BC it was realised that Companion Horsemen, with their long lances, no shields, and with little armour, were too vulnerable in a melee. So the Seleucid king Antiochus III upgraded them by giving the riders full iron armour and the horses scale bronze armour. This made them far more formidable, although it also made them fairly slow and cumbersome for mounted troops. In effect, they became a phalanx on horseback, and suffered from many of the infantry phalanx disadvantages in that they were useless if disordered. Later, when the Parthians took control of Persia in about 140 BC, they continued to use cataphract troops alongside their traditional light horse archers, and used this combination to win a stunning victory over the Romans at the battle of Carrhae in 53 BC. Later still, in 240 AD, the native Persians regained control under the Sassanid dynasty, and they too continued to use cataphracts in their wars against the Romans, the Byzantines, and the emerging Arabs.”
(This figure would also be suitable for the ancient Armenians, the Asia Minor breakaway Persian state of Pontus under Mithridates, the rebelling Roman client state of Palmyra, and the Scythian/southern Russian barbarians of the Crimea, such as the Alans, Rhoxalani and Sarmatians):-

 
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will point out that MY suggested stats are the same as the knight, and in fact IS a knight replacement
 
Sweet, really really good. Only suggestion on the Eastern Catapracht though; can the lance point down a little faster? (I know I know, "everyone's a critique nowadays!").

Great though...
 
That's great! They'll make it right into my own version of a DyP sort of mod (which I'm not planning to post anywhere anytime soon).

The Roman Cataphractari will replace the Knight unit for the Romans, I'd suppose? Same goes for Eastern w/ the Persians? (Well considering an Epic game replacement).
 
All righty, Kryten...
1. GREAT JOB!!!:goodjob:

2. You know what units need to be worked on NOW!:mwaha::evil::whipped:
 
hey, Rome had a very nice tradition of manumission for slaves...
 
although i have to say, this units agre GREAT (though i still think the sheil looks funcky :p, its no biggie though ;))
 
cataphract = byzantine knight replacement
cataphractari = roman knight replacement
eastern cataphract = greek knight replacement
kinboat's cataphract = persian cataphract replacement

err... anybody have an idea for better names for the last two?
 
my own advice is to hold out on using the eastern cataphract as the greek one, and just use the Byzanitine, or Roman cataphractii...

rather use the eastern cataphract for persia, and the middle eastern civs, and use kinboats cataphract as a form of light cavalry- becase that what the unit is- not a cataphract at all, but medium/light cavalry- heavey cav, particurlaey the "super" heavey cav like that cataphracts has FAR more armour then the kinboat model...

remember- early cataphracts are NOT the same as later cataphracts- this stems, more then likelly from the fact that 'cataphract' means 'armoured"- it wa sin reference to the man, NOT the horse, and rider that is the modern example of cataphracts
 
Don't worry, Kryten, I'm humane...Especially when I get new units!:evil: Speaking of which, couldja give us a rundown on exactly what units u need to do? I know:

Javelinman
Thessalonian Cavalry
Armed Helot
Epheboi Corps
...:confused:
 
Originally posted by aaminion00
cataphract = byzantine knight replacement
cataphractari = roman knight replacement
eastern cataphract = greek knight replacement
kinboat's cataphract = persian cataphract replacement

err... anybody have an idea for better names for the last two?

I agree with Xen. :)

Byzantine Cataphact (created by utahjazz) = for the Byzantines (of course!)
Roman Cataphractari = for the Late Roman Empire (300 AD onwards)
Eastern Cataphract = for the Greeks (or any other Macedonian Successor state)
Kinboat's Cataphract = for the Persians (called a 'Clibanari Horseman')
(A Cataphract was a fully armoured rider on a fully armoured horse, who didn't realy need a shield....but these were slow and cumbersome. So the later Sassanid Persians used "Clibanari Horsemen" instaed, who were lance & bow armed riders on half armoured horses, which is what kinboat's unit perfectly represents. While not quite as well armoured, they were more manoeuverable, so would not be classed a 'wheeled'. :) )
 

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As I unified the Greek and the Byzantines (don't flame me, I know many people hate this idea, but I have reasons for that) it's hard for me to distinguish really...

Does anybody have a link to the Kinboat version cataphract? Searching is disabled, you know, and I can't recall any such unit... Strange...
 
simple- they were NOT greeks, politcally, they were a Roman successor state, culturally, they were an indiependent state that MODERN Greece links to, but then consideing the greeks in the game are ANCEINT greeksa, there is a HUGE differnce between the two cultures
 
Originally posted by Xen
my own advice is to hold out on using the eastern cataphract as the greek one, and just use the Byzanitine, or Roman cataphractii...

rather use the eastern cataphract for persia, and the middle eastern civs, and use kinboats cataphract as a form of light cavalry- becase that what the unit is- not a cataphract at all, but medium/light cavalry- heavey cav, particurlaey the "super" heavey cav like that cataphracts has FAR more armour then the kinboat model...

remember- early cataphracts are NOT the same as later cataphracts- this stems, more then likelly from the fact that 'cataphract' means 'armoured"- it wa sin reference to the man, NOT the horse, and rider that is the modern example of cataphracts

But Xen, in my mod the knight and cataphract are not different units. The cataphract is just a type of knight that serves as a flavor unit for several civs. I'll use Kinboats "cataphract" as the Persian replacement, because it perfectly fits the late Sassanid knights that I've read about in my Middle Eastern Civilizations class. In the meanwhile I'll use the eastern cataphract as the Greek knight, because using either the roman or byzantine variations would be very cheap, and the eastern knight, as said by Kryten, is modeled after the Selucids, who were descendants of Alexander's kingdom. Therefore, I feel that using it as a flavor unit for Greece is justified.
 
actually, just look at the pictures posted By kryten- the cataphract is modeld after the ARMENIAN style of cataphract...
 
Originally posted by Xen
actually, just look at the pictures posted By kryten- the cataphract is modeld after the ARMENIAN style of cataphract...

well in that case I'll replace the byzantines with the armenains right away... -.-

I don't see any problem in using it as a Greek flavor unit. Later Selucid Greek cavalry could have very well resembled the Armenian horsemen that they encountered on their Northern borders for all I know.
 
Originally posted by Xen
simple- they were NOT greeks, politcally, they were a Roman successor state, culturally, they were an indiependent state that MODERN Greece links to, but then consideing the greeks in the game are ANCEINT greeksa, there is a HUGE differnce between the two cultures
Man, I know, I'm from Istanbul :) I wanted to keep the max civs at below 20 (I even combined the Spain and Portugal, calling them "Iberians". This is the same mentality here, although let me tell you what; my heart was bleeding when I was doing these.).
 
is no biggie really, just though you might want to know what it MIGHT have been like (if classicval Greece were to continue, while doubtful, they could have made troops that looked like that)
 
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