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Two totally different SID starting positions

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by BlackWizard, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard Chieftain

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    I encountered two totally different starting positions on sid.

    First I played as maya. I was surrounded by three another civs. No space to expand very hard game. Can somebody tell how you can survive this kind of start?
    Map size Small. Everything else random


    Second on the other hand is winnable even for me. I played as dutch. Map size Small. Everything else random. I'm alone on my my island and OH MY GOD! There is 4 different types of luxury in my island. I think thsi would have been winnable but i did not use rebuild(I consider rebuild cheating) for great library and lost it by 4 turns to carthage and stopped playing...how to continue without GL or is it possible?
     

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  2. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I do not see how you could have used a prebuild anyway as the Dutch. You would not have Mason, so could not build a palace. All you could have was a small head start with whatever structure known to you at that time.

    That is often the issue for me, no palace and I get 3 or so turns head start with a structure like maybe a lib. The best you can do is to get your city up to size 12 or whatever size you can and have most of them working tiles.

    Most of the time I do not even have a temple as I do not have the tech.

    As to Mayans game, it is very hard to survive with civs all around as they will crowed you out. I am happy to get 9 towns down in continent games, before I am pinned in.

    Well I really should not comment as I only ever played one game on a small map, I am not really certain of how things go on a map like that.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I haven't looked at the saves, but for Sid games in general I'm recommend the technique I've outlined from post # 29 on here.
     
  4. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ Spoon - if one considers prebuilds as cheating, i am pretty sure he won´t like your ´technique´ ;)
    t_x
     
  5. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard Chieftain

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    Only prebuilding with palace. I didn't read the whole article but Yeah I'm not going to that connect/disconnect luxury thing or was it in this article

    Edit: my goal is to take peaceful spacerace victory(or diplomatic) on sid. I dont know if it is possible with my skills. I have taken couple spacerace victorys on deity with england and sumeria.
     
  6. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I would think it would depend upon your definition of peaceful. It is going to be very hard to beat them on a launch with their 40% cost factor. I would think you would need to do some serious pruning or get a very good break on the distribution of one of the resources needed for the last parts.

    Why is this in the articles section, when it is a discussion?

    I would agree that disconnection of Iron or any resource and reconnecting for either allowing making otherwise obsolete units or atetmpting to prevent exhausting is an exploit.

    I do not see prebuilds as that as the AI will switch builds from either a wonder or any item from time to time to a wonder. True it is not a deliberate act of planning. The results are the same.

    In any event it is not going to come up that often, maybe once or twice a game. At Sid only once for me as I am only going to build the GLB.
     
  7. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard Chieftain

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    Prebuild with other wonders is ok but not with palace if you are not going to change your capital to other city.


    Well I think it also depends of the start very much. On the other save I posted I'm alone on my island(small continents map with 5 opponents if i remember correctly) with 3 or 4 different luxuries. On the other(random map type) I'm surrounded by AI and AI even builds its city next to my border before I have finished my first settler and doing so makes my capital 3 tiles smaller. Well step between deity and sid is HUGE very HUGE.

    Should you be alone on your island if you choose archipelago on standard size map? I think ther has sometimes be 1 or 2 other opponent on my island. I'm not sure about that anyway.
     
  8. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I'm still looking for my first win at Sid. I'd love a situation with each tribe on its own island, as I'd be safe and the AI will drown in units. On continents, I'd consider sharing with the AI, but on archipelago I've been restarting immediately upon seeing someone else.
     
  9. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    BlackWizard I cannot speak to small or tiny maps at any level. Just do not play them. On a huge map with 12-14 civs you have a fair shot at being alone, which is not my fav way. I prefer a decent island with 1 civ, if an archi map.

    Not going to see more than 1 lux often enough to consider it. Again I have no clue about a small map, I mostly play huge map on Sid or std continents and rare pan maps as pan is a bugger.
     
  10. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    You MAY be safe, but it is not a given. The AI does not do a better job of invading, but they sometimes can swamp you early. If you get unlucky an have 2 or 3 civs on islands that have access without using the sea they will drop settlers if open land.

    You likely will be at war soon and they can dump units too fast for you to deal with, unless you get a early leader. I have lost like that on Sid.

    Certainly if you have the time to grow a bit and get leaders, they will be easier to deal with. Like you say they tend to choke on units, which is why I tend to not give peace. This forces them to burn income on units and slows research.

    The larger the map the slower the tech pace, which is still quite fast. The concern on huge maps is that you do not get contacts and hence no wars, till it get dangerous. IOW they land units I can hardly kill and by the time I get leaders invasion faces tanks and mechs and MA units.

    My target is to take down one island at a min, before they get bombers. The good news is that you are going to get a lot of leaders during your invasion and then the next one is better.

    I do not play as AW, it sort of plays out that way though. I give peace, if they pay and are not my next target. That tends to mean they have lost a lot of units trying to invade.

    It is funny that I may kill 6-10 units in ones and twos and then they want peace and I have to pay them. Once they have lost 40 and more they are more flexible. Once Iland on them, no peace is given.
     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I'd suggest this thread.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Knowing a little of your play-style, I'd suggest that you run MapFinder over knight... ahem... night, on a small map, 80% archipelago vs. weak opponents and play for the 20k (Carthage vs. is virtually ideal... though on a small map, you *can* build the Pyramids or Oracle playing as another Seafaring tribe with the right map). You can find small maps of this type with a river and high food and production, if you look hard enough... scratch that run MapFinder enough. At this level, it usually works out best to use your 2nd city as 20k site, with your capital first building a settler for that 2nd city. Building your 20k site so that the capital lies within the 20k city's radius is no problem at all. Pre-building helps a lot, and ivory can help a lot also.

    If you try this, I'll happily provide any help that I can. My list of accepted games might also help if you want to pursue this, I've submitted 3 or so on a small map, 3 or so on a standard map, 2 on a large map, and a 20k game with Korea that I turned into a diplomatic game after getting attacked late and not wanting to deal with Khan anymore, if I could have done so. Others have played as the Byzantines with a super start going straight for the Colossus and using the capital, and that can work also, though in my opinion using the 2nd city for the 20k usually will work out better. I've never used any "Emsworth agreements" like those I mentioned above in those games, though I know occasionally I have picked up techs for free when the AI plopped units down on my island, or I have "payed" gpt for tech, immediately broken the deal, and taken the reputation hit.

    Maybe I should have PMed this to CKS, but just in case BlackWizard had any interest in this sort of game, this might help. The commerce difference might in general be the greatest on small archipelago 80% maps where you have a river and the AIs don't, unless you find one of those very, very rare archipelago tiny 80% archipelago maps with a river.
     
  13. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I finally got my Sid win, 20K in 1858 on a standard archipelago map with the Byzantines. I started on a pretty isolated island; there was a very long galley-safe path from me to the AI. I didn't use MapFinder, because I'm too lazy to get it running, but I got lucky with a river and two cows. My 20K site was far from ideal - I maxed out at 96 spt - but it was good enough, and the isolation more than made up for it. The Mongols and Americans were also pretty isolated and drowned in unit support costs. The Zulu and Aztecs warred most of the game and allowed me to keep up in techs. I eventually invaded the Mongols, with rifles (my free tech, which was lucky, because I'd never have researched it on my own), to get an army for the heroic epic. They had hundreds of spears and archers, and I eventually took their little island, too. I traded luxes to the Zulu and Aztecs the whole game, which encouraged them to war with each other, and not me, although the Aztecs invaded the turn I won. I didn't break any deals, nor did I make any in anticipation of the AI breaking them. It was an interesting experience, but I don't think I'll repeat it any time soon.
     
  14. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    That ain't bad, 20K in 1858 on any SID....
     
  15. del62

    del62 Chieftain

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    well done CKS
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Congrats CKS, did you build the Colossus? Did you use the capital or the second city for the 20k site?
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I did not build the Colossus. The Aztecs built it in 2470 bc. I used the second city, as I wanted a palace prebuild. In the AA I built the Mausoleum, the Hanging Gardens, and the Great Library. The middle ages went poorly, culture-wise; I got only Bach's and Shakespeare's Theater (and Smith's, but I built it after the Hoover Dam). I didn't catch up in culture with Zimbabwe until around 7000 cp, which was an interesting and uncomfortable situation for me. (Zimbabwe ended up with 15k+, while the Aztecs had a total culture of 160k+ but nowhere near twice the Zulu's culture.)
     
  18. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard Chieftain

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    Very good. I'm always unlucky with deal breaking and reputation. I get them in every game. I dont break deals intentionally. But computer breakes them for me and I get the blame.
    This happens when AI declares war to another AI or sometimes to you and brakes the trade route to other civ.This might be searoute or landroute. This is extremely annoying. Is there any fix for this "bug"?


    I'm not so good in english that I could try to find answer to that question with search.
    Maybe I look from the bug report thread.

    Edit. This trade breaking bug acts weird with some mods. Because they might sometimes make gpt deals with you for techs(they give you tech and you give gpt). After some turns(30-60?)
    they would not do and then again they will do similar deals and so on. And reason is always from the same deal with long ago crushed civilization.


    Sorry about "offtopic"
     
  19. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    It is not a bug as that is what was intended. Your best way to avoid that is to not make gpt deals that require going through water that you do not control and can be blocked. IOW always look at how the route land or sea works and if it could be broken, avoid the deal.

    Once you get your rep broken, it does not matter how long ao it was done. It only matters that others know about it. You can break a deal with someone as long as you eliminate them, before they get contacts.
     
  20. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard Chieftain

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    So basically you can only make deals with your neighbors because searoutes can be blocked even on modern age. AI sometimes build only one harbor and if that is captured route is broken.

    Also land routes is often broken by AI when declaring war or if they pillage everything around other capital.

    If you have a deal with weak civilization and that civilization is wiped out before deal is over does that also give you reputation hit?
     

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