Type 45 class Destroyer- most advanced vessel of its kind?

I'd just like to throw a cat amongst the pigoeons here and say I think Russia makes the best warboats
It's only cos they learned it from the Romaioi. :mischief:
 
You may not like how he states it, but his opinion on modern naval surface combat and platforms is worth more and better informed than anyone else's here, including mine, and I'm a former surface line officer with a hobbyist interest in the subject myself.

:mischief: :mischief: :mischief:
 
Hey, since Patro is already here, I have a question. Dude, why are we Americans still using the Harpoon? Don't other nations have supersonic missiles? Where are ours? Won't they own our Phalanx systems?
 
The short answer is that surface threats are few and far between at the moment, with the exception of small boats which Harpoons won't help you with. The Harpoon, despite its age, is still more than capable agains most warships in the world, and to be honest carrier aircraft would destory any opponents surface fleet anyway.

The focus for a long time has been AAW (including anti missile) and USW which are really the only way any nation could hope to survive long enough to inflict any damage on the US at all. There are two reasons for this. One is the very unpredictable and to be honest luck based aspects of USW, and the other is the quick and violent nature of air warfare.

SUW is very much a set piece chess match affair. It has its unique challenges, but ships move relatively slow and it is a 2D easily understood setup where there is time to array your forces and think things through. Contrast that to AAW, where attacks come and go within minutes, or USW where thermal layers and whatnot make detection of submarines (and surface ships by submarines) very tricky not to mention you have no communications with your own submarines who are protecting you. In AAW or USW it is very easy for a single mistake to totally change the game.

Thats why so much effort was put into Aegis/SPY/SM2, in order to push out the engagement zone of air warfare and better manage the chaos in order to give people the time to make decisions and counter saturation attacks (and if need be punch out and let Aegis take it). In the case of ASW, the answere was the Seawolf and later Virginia class submarines as well as a whole host of other ASW weapons/countermeasures like NIXIE/PRARIE/MASKER/TACTAS/etc. Having played with the subs of several nations (both diesel and nuclear) the weakness of submarines is their torpedoes, they are realtively easly to evade with modern countermeasures.

So thats why there isn't any harpoon upgrade, becasuet he other warfare areas are far more important as nations simply realize the futility of competing in the surface arena.

As to newer supersonic missiles, the newer block Phalanx can take out most of them, but the real revolution is in RAM and ESSM, both of which are capable of taking out missiles like the Sunburn and are mounted on all our and many of NATO's newest classes. There are a whole host of countermeasures like Nulka that are very effective.
 
Patroklos, I reckon Formaldehyde knows more on this than you do. He's countered every post you've written.
 
You had me there for the briefest instant. :D

Is that why my name keeps appearing in their responses? Because they are ignoring me?

No, its why your name hasn't appeared in anyone's posts but mine and why nothing you have said has been commented on except by me. I am charitable that way.
 
Probably it is the most advanced vessel of its kind. Anyways, only brits are stupid enough to care about almost-useless destroyers.
 
The short answer is that surface threats are few and far between at the moment, with the exception of small boats which Harpoons won't help you with. The Harpoon, despite its age, is still more than capable agains most warships in the world, and to be honest carrier aircraft would destory any opponents surface fleet anyway.

The focus for a long time has been AAW (including anti missile) and USW which are really the only way any nation could hope to survive long enough to inflict any damage on the US at all. There are two reasons for this. One is the very unpredictable and to be honest luck based aspects of USW, and the other is the quick and violent nature of air warfare.

SUW is very much a set piece chess match affair. It has its unique challenges, but ships move relatively slow and it is a 2D easily understood setup where there is time to array your forces and think things through. Contrast that to AAW, where attacks come and go within minutes, or USW where thermal layers and whatnot make detection of submarines (and surface ships by submarines) very tricky not to mention you have no communications with your own submarines who are protecting you. In AAW or USW it is very easy for a single mistake to totally change the game.

Thats why so much effort was put into Aegis/SPY/SM2, in order to push out the engagement zone of air warfare and better manage the chaos in order to give people the time to make decisions and counter saturation attacks (and if need be punch out and let Aegis take it). In the case of ASW, the answere was the Seawolf and later Virginia class submarines as well as a whole host of other ASW weapons/countermeasures like NIXIE/PRARIE/MASKER/TACTAS/etc. Having played with the subs of several nations (both diesel and nuclear) the weakness of submarines is their torpedoes, they are realtively easly to evade with modern countermeasures.

So thats why there isn't any harpoon upgrade, becasuet he other warfare areas are far more important as nations simply realize the futility of competing in the surface arena.

As to newer supersonic missiles, the newer block Phalanx can take out most of them, but the real revolution is in RAM and ESSM, both of which are capable of taking out missiles like the Sunburn and are mounted on all our and many of NATO's newest classes. There are a whole host of countermeasures like Nulka that are very effective.

Which rather eloquently explains why the 45's are focused on AAW :goodjob:
 
There is a differnece between focused and soley capable. :D

How do you think a UFC fighter who can only kick but not jab or block would do in the ring?

The comparison is still not on the Daring's side, as a Burkes primary mission (amongst many) is AAW. Besides, destroyers are by definition supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none.
 
There is a differnece between focused and soley capable. :D

How do you think a UFC fighter who can only kick but not jab or block would do in the ring?

The comparison is still not on the Daring's side, as a Burkes primary mission (amongst many) is AAW. Besides, destroyers are by definition supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

So reclassify them as frigates :mischief:
 
Patroklos seeing as your the resident navy expert what do you think of the Zumwalt?
 
There is a differnece between focused and soley capable. :D

How do you think a UFC fighter who can only kick but not jab or block would do in the ring?

The comparison is still not on the Daring's side, as a Burkes primary mission (amongst many) is AAW. Besides, destroyers are by definition supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

A type 23 ASW frigate costs 10% of a type 45 AAW. They are the jack of all trades. The 45's exist "in order to push out the engagement zone of air warfare and better manage the chaos in order to give people the time to make decisions" (well put BTW).

There are no torpedos because, as you say, they are "realtively easly to evade with modern countermeasures" which the 45 has. As I'm sure you know the 45's 2004 vintage SSTD countermeasures is the basis for the underdevelopment hardkill torp defence being tested by your own DoD. Also as we have both pointed out there basically isnt anyone to shoot at at the moment. The spaces exist wired to fit the tubes if the situation were to change.

As you say -

pat said:
So thats why there isn't any harpoon upgrade, becasuet he other warfare areas are far more important as nations simply realize the futility of competing in the surface arena.

Indeed. As far as I know we've never fired one in anger, there is no-one aparent to fire one at and the tec is old. Who, that we could plausably be at war with with at short notice, could give us the kind of stand-up naval fight that would require us to use one? The 45's are built and wired for them if the situation were to change.
 
In any case, an Arleigh Burke totally owns it in AAW anyway.
From what I am reading, the type-45's radar has twice the range of the Arleigh Burke/Ticonderoga's (400km v 190km), the missiles are far newer and are specifically designed for close-range work - which is why no CIWS has been fitted...the ships even have a lower radar cross-section...

tbh, i'm not sure what specs you are taking into consideration Pat...?
 
Patroklos, I reckon Formaldehyde knows more on this than you do. He's countered every post you've written.
I merely pointed out that his knowledge base was quite limited. Once again, simply reading Jane's doesn't make you an expert in this field because most of the relevant data is classified. As such, Jane's does not have access to it nor does he.

While Patroklos is certainly entitled to his opinion on which ship is better, it is only just one more opinion based on incomplete information.

OTOH those who claimed that the new ship is superior, e.g. the British Navy, do in fact have access to that data - not only on their ship but on all US vessels. Is their opinion 'better'? If you think Patroklos' opinion is 'better' than mine in this regard because his knowledge is greater (even though I have not even ventured one in this case), then you have to assume the same for the British Navy or risk being called a hypocrite.

Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo. Ambrose Bierce
 
While Patroklos is certainly entitled to his opinion on which ship is better, it is only just one more opinion based on incomplete information.

You do understand that Patroklos is a US Navy surface warfare officer, a Lieutenant Commander if I remember correctly? Saying his opinion is no better than anyone else's here is like someone with a learner's permit telling a professional driver that his opinion is worthless regarding the press release that Ford put out stating that its 2009 Explorscapeditionstangus is the safest car ever. Sure the driver may have an inherent bias for or against Fords, but to dismiss the opinion completely seems illogical. Wardroom chat, multinational exercises, and seeing hands-on how Jane's data compares against existing ships counts for something, I assure you.
 
No, I didn't know he was a US Navy surface warfare officer. In fact, I asked specifically if he had access to the classified information on any of the vessels. If he actually served on an AAW platform mentioned, then he likely does or did have access to that data.

But the point still stands. Since he likely doesn't have access to British classifiied information, he is still working from an incomplete knowledge base. OTOH the people who claim that the British ship is indeed superior apparently do have access to all the classified information on both sides. So it's really their experts against him. I'd pick them for the same reasons you just mentioned.

And once again, I'd like to remind everybody that I have not ventured an opinion of which ship is 'best'. I am merely reminding everybody of the facts, as opposed to the opinions.
 
No, I didn't know he was a US Navy surface warfare officer. In fact, I asked specifically if he had access to the classified information on any of the vessels. If he actually served on an AAW platform mentioned, then he likely does or did have access to that data.

But the point still stands. Since he likely doesn't have access to British classifiied information, he is still working from an incomplete knowledge base. OTOH the people who claim that the British ship is indeed superior apparently do have access to all the classified information on both sides. So it's really their experts against him. I'd pick them for the same reasons you just mentioned.

And once again, I'd like to remind everybody that I have not ventured an opinion of which ship is 'best'. I am merely reminding everybody of the facts, as opposed to the opinions.

Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.
-Lord Byron
 
Exactly. Good point.

HYPOCRITE, n. One who professes virtues that he does not respect secures the advantage of seeming to be what he depises. Ambrose Bierce
 
No, I didn't know he was a US Navy surface warfare officer. In fact, I asked specifically if he had access to the classified information on any of the vessels. If he actually served on an AAW platform mentioned, then he likely does or did have access to that data.

But the point still stands. Since he likely doesn't have access to British classifiied information, he is still working from an incomplete knowledge base. OTOH the people who claim that the British ship is indeed superior apparently do have access to all the classified information on both sides. So it's really their experts against him. I'd pick them for the same reasons you just mentioned.

And once again, I'd like to remind everybody that I have not ventured an opinion of which ship is 'best'. I am merely reminding everybody of the facts, as opposed to the opinions.

If he had access to it he couldn't comment on it beyond vagueries without being locked up for a long time.

I was once questioned by a Commander on talking about type 42's on a Naval base, because the public might hear me. It didn't matter that I had no more than a passing understanding of the subject at all.
 
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