Types of economies

I think of these economies as the way in which a player converts their land and basic resources into science and money. This could be done by building lots of buildings, generating supreme amounts of commerce or generating specifics great people to get an edge. Or trading for that matter.

Me I like to build cottages everywhere because it fits my style of play. This gives me lot of commerce which I can use to drive up my research and get a tech lead. Then I can choose what victory I want from there. The way you set up your economy makes certain victories easier or harder. Going for cultural by producing lots of great artist for example.

Am I just stating the obvious here? Or am I completely wrong? :p
 
I'm just not sure that I agree that the source determines the economy Ibian. An EE running off cottages is fairly different from a typical CE for example.
The difference is that you build spies instead of axes. Thats not much of a difference.
 
When I first played I had no idea of the importance of commerce so I just tried to get as many hammers out of the land as possible by balancing workshops, mines and farms and later watermills. I was used to playing Civ 3 where money came from roads so I even replaced developed towns in conquered enemy territory with workshops. That actually worked in the lowest difficulties (don't ask me how) so there does exist some form of hammer economy although in it's pure form it's not viable.

Based on land uses there could be said to be three types of economies, in the real life sense that the economy is everything produced and consumed within a society.
Hammer economies are where the player tries to get as many hammers out of the land as possible (workshops, mines and sawmills). Food economies are where he tries to get as mush food as possible (farms) and commerce economies where everything is cottaged for commerce. Trade economy might not fit into this but I've never tried it.
A pure specialist economy as I understand it would emphasize food production but of course there are buildings (produced by hammers) that help. Cottage economy mostly depends on the production of commerce straight from the land via cottages. Wonder economies could be said to be based on hammers. Espionage economy could depend on both food production and commerce production vie either cottages or specialists.

Of course most players emphasize food in some cities, hammers in others and commerce in the rest or perhaps they don't even specialize their cities so this classification of mine is probably not helpful. Running a hammer economy doesn't tell anyone anything except that he likes hammers. He might use them to build units to plunder gold or wonders for specialist and bonuses. I myself like watermills because they give me a little bit of everything under state property.
 
The problem is not using the term "economy", the problem is people claiming that only this or that type of "economy" is the most viable in all situations. If you analyze their games I'll bet you'll see clear patterns of choices in play-style, civ traits and settings that makes this true for them but not necessarily for YOU.
Personally reading about SE has made me think of other ways than building lots of cottages to generate large amounts of research, simply because I hadn't considered the extent to which you can utilize specialists for this purpose. It didn't make me think that I should stop ever building cottages, why would I limit my game like that? I think the problem some newbies have is that they're trying to get better to quickly instead of having the usual (in civs case LONG) learning curve and they try to achieve this by completely emulating posters on this board instead of finding out what works best for them and their kind of game and take it from there. Just my two denarii...
 
The difference is that you build spies instead of axes. Thats not much of a difference.

A CE based EE runs different civics (Nationalism vs Free Speech) and builds different infrastructure (no libraries/universities, but jails/security/intelligence centers).

Thats enough for it to qualify to me as a different type of economy.
 
Maybe so Gliese, maybe so. But emulating the games of some of the folks I've seen here has always helped me improve my playstyle. I get to practice, and perfect, strategies that I can use when the game warrants them. In some cases, Obsolete's stuff, I've even gotten new strategies and begun to gain insight into how they work.

-abs
 
Lets break it down!

This is the way I see it:

Three main sources for things. Slider, Specialist, and City.

Slider works off of commerce, which can only be gotten from working tiles, like cottages.

Specialist is when things, like specialists, put out direct benefits, without using the slider. I am putting settled specialists under this.

City is when things come from buildings in a city or bonuses to the city.

Now, the four things economies can generate (At least in BTS):

Science
Culture
Espionage
Gold
Production


Okay, now lets look at the economy "Types"

CE is generating commerce for the slider using cottages. Cottage-based economy.

SE is using specialists to generate Science, Culture, Espionage, or Gold. Because its so specified, it isn't as flexible as a CE, but is still very powerful. The slider is still used, too, but it isn't a CE because it isn't cottage based, its more farm based to be able to run the specialists.

RE is a economy based on City bonuses. You use shrines, and spread your religion, to produce extra Gold. The extra gold means you don't have to worry about maintenance. However, this economy can't be used by itself, because all it does is give you gold, not research. I view this as a economic subset, because it isn't a complete economy; it has to be used with another economy type for it to work.

WE is an economy based on... Production and City bonuses. You use production to produce wonders, which give your cities bonuses. I don't know as much about this one, but I suspect its another subset, because its used along with other economies.

EE is an economy based on Espionage. The idea is to steal research instead of generating it yourself. You can technically run this with a CE, just putting the slider into Espionage. Therefore, I don't view this as an economy, I view it as a playstyle, because it is supported by an economy, it in itself doesn't generate anything.

IE is an industrial economy, based on producing money/research/culture from the cities. I don't know how to put this one.

ME is a Military Economy, based on pillaging, is a Gold economy based on production. Its an economy because it generates Gold.
 
Maybe so Gliese, maybe so. But emulating the games of some of the folks I've seen here has always helped me improve my playstyle. I get to practice, and perfect, strategies that I can use when the game warrants them. In some cases, Obsolete's stuff, I've even gotten new strategies and begun to gain insight into how they work.

-abs

I think the important thing though is that you use it for practice with a critical mind, and test what works for you and what don't. Like Buddha would say, don't be Buddha, be a Buddha, meaning of course, learn from others but don't try to BE them. So emulating is fine as long as you don't get stuck on a particular view just bc someone else told you it's the best. :)
 
A CE based EE runs different civics (Nationalism vs Free Speech) and builds different infrastructure (no libraries/universities, but jails/security/intelligence centers).

Thats enough for it to qualify to me as a different type of economy.
Thats just infrastructure. You are still getting your commerce from cottages. A different use of your economy, but still a cottage economy.

Since im posting anyway, id just like to add the Hammer Economy, or HE. I was inspired by obsolete to give it a try, and it just works much better for me than any of the others. What you do is pretty much just build a lot of workshops. They give as many hammers as a railroaded hill when you got all the techs, plus one food.

Benefits: Better infrastructure, more wonders. Every single city can build anything it needs, you can get most of the wonders, and since all cities have a lot of hammers you can even spread them around so you dont get GA pollution. When you run out of things to build you can turn the hammers into beakers or gold. And of course it makes it very easy to build up a big army. A very versatile economy in other words.

Downsides:It will never rival a CE in pure beakers, but with the occasional war its possible to grab enough land to stay in the lead. Even hammers can keep you in the tech lead when you have more land than anyone else.
 
So, Ibian, sounds like your experience with a hammer economy was quite positive.

That's one I've never spent time perfecting. Always thought it sounded slow enough that it wasn't worth putting the time and analysis into.

What tech path did you use? I'm curious what your targets were since it seems like your infrastructure would be pretty radically different from the other economies.

Oh and Gliese, sure, the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao, but Civ is not Tao either, nor buddha-nature. ;)

-abs
 
Well the start was like any other, get the great wall, found a new city which builds nothing but settlers until i got all the land i want, build the oracle and grab CoL with it, build pyramids and go from there. I was stuck between Toku and Charlemagne so i took out Toku before he could take me out.

In the beginning its all about mines and enough farms to support them. After a little teching workshops produce the same thing hills do (im using caste system of course, only thing that makes sense with this setup). A bit longer down the road workshops start producing even more in the form of an extra food (state property).

Windmills and watermills have situational use. With a low health cap it makes no sense to grow a big population, so workshops all the way there. With a higher healthiness cap its a good idea to build windmills/watermills for more people who can then work more workshops, it gives a higher net hammer gain that way.

Around railroads all the infrastructure is built, so its time to focus more on research. I dont have the patience to nurture a bunch of cottages this late in the game (especially since its a very rigid and long term plan compared to the hammer flexibility), so i start building windmills and watermills in the cities where the health cap allows it. The extra people either work the mills or become specialists, depending what gives the highest net beakers, and meanwhile the city still has enough hammers to produce new buildings when i tech to them.

Funny side notes: My ironworks city gets more beakers from running priests than scientists. This is due to Angkor Wat and the silly amount of production multipliers this game has. And i dont even have factories yet, my normal cities will probably end up the same way. (im writing this as i play, i made it a 2 session game)

Since all my cities have every useful building, i get a better commerce to gold ratio than commerce to beaker ratio. This is not something im used to.

Also, i have not found a good spot for Oxford yet. My top commerce cities are either on the shore or have a few commerce resources, so it seems like kind of a waste.

Im working my way to space parts right now, with about 1000 beakers/turn (give or take depending if my cities are building something). Charlemagne is still sharing my continent, but he is backwards in tech and has less land and he loves me, so i dont think he will try anything. Not that he could anyway.

The main difference compared to the other economies i have tried is in civics. With so many workshops state property actually does more to combat unhealthiness than environmentalism does (at least until i replace enough of them). Okay so thats not a long list but its just another thing im not at all used to doing.
 
Since there are so many nuances and hybrids are possible, wouldn't it be more useful to formulate internally consistent doctrines?

For a stripped-down warmongering SE this might be...

1.) We wish to be as independent of commerce as feasible, in order to avoid economic collapse through unhappiness.
2.) Since the most expedient alternative to fuel research is specialists, we will emphasise farms. With the food surplus and no cottages that should be worked at all times, we can make very effective use of Slavery.
3.) Expanding by force takes precedence over building up cities. Land is power.
4.) We do not seek to become a tech powerhouse. Consistent output is sacrificed for lightbulbing, for trade or a military advantage (which we can convert into techs by bullying)
5.) Eventually, this approach will lead to a vast but backwards empire. Either we attempt an early domination win or we switch to a more powerful (and less robust) economy, surpassing the competitors through sheer size.


***

Some are rather specific... for example, the following is my prime choice for the Incas since a good Quechua Rush allows me to grow my capital without sacrificing land.

1.) We seek to maximise the effectiveness of a bloated capital while making full use of the efficiency of cottages. Science will be as close to 100% as possible
2.) We will be an absolute wonder hog, all of them in the capital if possible. National Epic, and later Oxford, will turn this into a monster. The GPP from the wonders alone will render specialist cities obsolete (bad pun intended).
3.) Apart from building academies, Great Persons will be settled. Most in the capital, some Merchants and possibly Artists in our holy Wall Street city.
4.) With all the religious wonders online, newly founded cities will not strain the economy. Now is the time to settle every space left and careful expansion by force. Hopefully against a brother in fath; the Apostolic Palace is an invaluable tool for painless and gainful wars against a superior opponent.
5.) This type of economy is incredibly powerful when it gets going, but it requires some breathing room. Unplanned wars are usually a tremendous setback.


In many cases, the later points would be flexible... for example you could have a farm-based economy and settle the specialists.
In my opinion, economies are defined by what you are trying to leverage with your core empire:

- raw commerce volume (CE variants)
- independence of commerce (SE variants)
- painless expansion (coastal trade routes or heavy emphasis on religion)

What you do with it - science, espionage, or merely supporting your conquests until they become productive in their own right - doesn't define an economy nearly as much in my opinion.
If you have a production-light cottage economy and were forced into a costly defensive war, you might focus on espionage rather than science, then use your spies to take the leader down.
No problem there, you won't wish for different city positioning, a more compact/expansive empire or different improvements. You're just putting your cottage economy to a different use.
If, however, you suddenly find you have to war non-stop or routinely defy UN/AP resolutions, you might be in trouble.
 
There is definitely a religious economy, although I think its better called a Religious/Wonder Economy.

The following wonders:
- University of Sankore
- Spiral Minaret
- Statue of Liberty
- Apolostic Palace
- Great Lighthouse

Are wonders that give a benefit even to a size one city. (At least once it has a few buildings). You can base an economy on REXing to the hilt and then using these wonders to fuel your science, production and cash. Combined with shrine income it works and the bulk of the income need not come from population.

It runs out of steam in the space race, but its extremely viable for military wins during renaissance. I've played a game using this approach where my cities got whipped down badly and the economy just kept running even when my number of citizens was halved - so I couldn't call it a cottage or specialist economy. I got very little income from cottages because the culture slider was very high for the war (I had the Statue of Zeus and deliberately left the wars running as they hurt my opponents even more). Technically specialists contributed a lot - from mercantilism + representation + SOL. But I ran very few population based specialists so I wouldn't really call it a SE.

And what do you use to Create those wonders , :hammers: this is a specialized form of a wonder econ which is itself a type of hammer econ
 
Another economy is the standard HE: Hybrid economy.
In it's simplest form, it is a combination of the CE And SE.
All your cities are specialized but the primary source of research is from cottages.
The goal of the HE is to run the science slider at 100%, while still having a viable GPT income.
This is achieved by the use of a specialized wealth city (usually your capitol), in which you run as many merchants and great merchants as possible (the city should be a merchant farm).
Like the SE you will also have a super science city, running scientists and with Oxford.
An espionage city is also recommended.
Your others cities will be cottage cities for science and production cities for units.

Under this system you should be able to run 100% research for most of the game while generating excess GPT. An extra wealth city (or more) can be added if empire grows too big, to inject more wealth into your empire.

Your capitol wealth city should absorb all great merchants and should have wall street (obviously).

Important civics are caste system and representation.
Bureaucracy offers little financial benefit, as your capitol wealth city will be generating most of it's wealth directly (merchants, shrines, corporations) and not through commerce.
Helpful traits are, naturally, financial and philosophical.

Unlike the SE, which crashes after emancipation, the HE can remain viable into the late game by transitioning into a strong CE (cottages only need to be built in your wealth and super science cities, which are few).

A downside to this system is that you don't have as much freedom to assign commerce to culture or espionage. But dropping the research slider to assign culture or extra wealth won't have as negative an effect on your research as doing so in a CE.

The strength of a HE is that you can have 0% assigned to wealth and still be generating GPT profit. If need be, you can temporarily drop the science slider and let the large cottage infrastructure inject your empire with some large short term wealth in order to upgrade units etc.
 
What about a production economy (this never last the whole game but rocks while you are trying to recover from an economic collapse in the classical ages.)
 
Merchant Economy: Trading resources, including but not limited to your only strategic resource for GPT and Techs for raw cash to fuel 100% slider.
 
I don't view my economy as a nationwide policy, I vary the economy choices city by city. As for espionage, I've never used it as a focus of my economy, but it has greatly supplemented my research. The 3000 EP from Great Spies is much more than what a GS from a bulb or a GM for a trade machine could give you. Even in the Industrial or Modern Age, those 3000 EP's (and waiting 5 turns) can give you that boost to steal something like Electricity or Radio. I prefer just getting Great Spies instead of pumping up my Espionage slider.
 
Merchant Economy: Trading resources, including but not limited to your only strategic resource for GPT and Techs for raw cash to fuel 100% slider.

An option instead of buildilng wonders for failgold which matures at TBD date in the future (difficult for planning):

1. Focus espionage on war target.
2. Tech key wonder tech (eg. Divine Right or Paper). Plant spy in target's capital and/or 2nd city.
3. Sell stone/marble to said target. Helpful if target is Wonder building focus (Frederick, AC, HC, Rameses)
4. Tech to war tech or upgrade units (or rush buy) with income.
5. If another AI builds wonder first, use spy mission "Steal Treasury"
6. If war target builds wonder, use spy mission City Revolt during war and capture said wonder.
 
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