UK Devolution

[Figaro]

Following the results of the last set of elections in the Welsh Assembly/Scottish parliament, I was wondering how people feel about this topic.

For those who might not know, the UK government is centralised in London but limited powers have been granted to elected institutions in Cardiff and Edinburgh, rather like state governments in the US.

Please feel free to vote in this poll regardless of whether or not you are Welsh/Scottish or even a UK citizen. This poll is about whether or not devolution of powers is fundementally a good thing.

 

[Jesus Civs]

Nothern Ireland now finally seems to have a fully committed devolved government.

Due to the ongoing voilent conflicts in Northern Ireland since 1969, a devolved government was deemed necessary as a path to peace.

After the Good Friday Agreement, the motions were put in place for devolution. As part of the agreement for devolution, the Unionists and Nationalists would have to share power. This was seen as a way to secure peace by political means. And, in my opinion, devolution worked.

 

[Figaro]

Hmm, I should probably have included Ireland in this thread in some manner. I suppose the situation is rather different there however.

 

[Jesus Civs]

Hmm, I should probably have included Ireland in this thread in some manner. I suppose the situation is rather different there however.

No worries.

I think the Northern Ireland road to peace is an excellent example for others to follow.

The devolution of Wales and Scotland would be for different reasons however.

If anyone is studying international peace and such matters, read about the history of Northern Ireland. It also has a happy ending!

Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley laughing and sharing a joke at the same table is pretty amazing!

 

[JZ_UK]

You could have included a marker about English and regional devolution.

English - The UK Parliament makes laws for both the whole of the United Kingdom, England and Wales and England alone - this means non-English MPs can vote on laws that will effect only the English, governments have in the past used their non-English MPs to comfortably put through legislation opposed by a significant minority of English MP and even on occasion a bare majority of English MPs. This has the issue that England is so important to the Union that should it receive its own Parliament it will neuter the UK parliament and lead to the disintegration of the Union.

Regional - Many of England's regions have populations and economies as strong or stronger than the devolved regions, providing assemblies to them was the darling of Prescott... they failed as they were (rightly in my view) seen as a pointless tier of government with virtually no areas of legislative competence.


Personally my only issue with devolution is the ability to use non-English MPs to ram through opposed legislation, we don't get 'rebellions' very often in our one party dictatorship... but whenever one does threaten extra MPs who have no interest at all in the Bill can be wheeled out to oppose it... handy fire brigade...

 

[Figaro]

You could have included a marker about English and regional devolution.

English - The UK Parliament makes laws for both the whole of the United Kingdom, England and Wales and England alone - this means non-English MPs can vote on laws that will effect only the English, governments have in the past used their non-English MPs to comfortably put through legislation opposed by a significant minority of English MP and even on occasion a bare majority of English MPs. This has the issue that England is so important to the Union that should it receive its own Parliament it will neuter the UK parliament and lead to the disintegration of the Union.

Regional - Many of England's regions have populations and economies as strong or stronger than the devolved regions, providing assemblies to them was the darling of Prescott... they failed as they were (rightly in my view) seen as a pointless tier of government with virtually no areas of legislative competence.


Personally my only issue with devolution is the ability to use non-English MPs to ram through opposed legislation, we don't get 'rebellions' very often in our one party dictatorship... but whenever one does threaten extra MPs who have no interest at all in the Bill can be wheeled out to oppose it... handy fire brigade...

Hmm, this is a common complaint (and quite a worthy one) - I suspect some kind of a law to prevent this will happen soon enough, as more and more people draw attention to it. I personally have no trouble with my local MPs losing part of their power on the grounds the Welsh Assembly have it instead!

I suppose that if one is in favour of a regional assembly for England (or parts of England) one should vote for the second option.

 

[JZ_UK]

I don't want regional assemblies I don't think they're really a grand idea... certainly not the way they were before...

I'd be happy with a procedural restriction, MPs whose constituency falls out of the area of effect should not have voting rights.

 

[bathsheba666]

How about we let them devolve, so we can conquer them all over again

And Birmingham, come to think of it......with two teams in the premiership they're getting above themselves.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

It's just a swing the other way with the Scottish MSPs (and lets face it, theirs is the only one with any real power) able to vote on English legislation. It was the other way round when the Poll Tax was tested out in Scotland first by the Tories who had was it 1 or 2 MPs in Scottish constituencies at most. Eventually they lost all their Scottish seats.

I think the UK parliament should have Scottish MP representation but perhaps they should be excluded from voting for laws that only affect England (basically education and law).

 

[Arwon]

Independence means you guys can all vote for each other at Eurovision.

I'm just saying is all.

 

[stormbind]

This is all about the human "them and us" syndrome: a fundamental building block of uncivil tribalism.

 

[Figaro]

This is all about the human "them and us" syndrome: a fundamental building block of uncivil tribalism.

I take it then that you believe the British Empire was a good thing, and that the countries which made it up were wrong to demand their independence?

This is always a difficult one, because on the one hand, there's the view that everyone ought to get along and that sepratism is always divisive and tribalist, but on the other there's the view that diversity is a good thing, and the view that it is ultimately better for a people to decide their own fate.

I confess that I don't know about Scotland, before devolution in Wales many of the powers which are now in the hands of the Welsh assembly were in the power of the Secretary of State for Wales, a government official chosen by the PM rather than elected by the people of Wales. Often, he was not Welsh and did not represent a constituency outside of Wales. Traditionally, in Wales support is high for the Labour party and always has been, meaning whenever a Conservative government has been in power the Secretary of State represents a party which the vast majority of Wales did not vote for.

Tell me - in demanding devolution are we really being tribalist and advocating an "us and them" attitude, or is it the British establishment who are advocating "This is what it means to be British, if you don't like it sod off"?

 

[Brighteye]

Independence means you guys can all vote for each other at Eurovision.

I'm just saying is all.

This is all about the human "them and us" syndrome: a fundamental building block of uncivil tribalism.

If the UK split up they wouldn't vote for us. There'd be no happy love-ins. Scotland and Wales would engage in pointed snubs, if politics was allowed into their voting at all.
Although I like to think that even the Scots and Welsh have more taste than to vote for '1,2,3 Tanzen!', that probably also means that they won't choose to vote for scantily clad air hostesses.
I may be wrong.

 

[stormbind]

An example of tribalism would be drawing a distinction between what it means to be Welsh, Scottish, English, Irish, British, &c.

At the end of the day we all seek the same thing and its basically happiness.

Political differences derive from different opinions of how to achieve lasting/long-term happiness. Difference in opinion is the result of human stupidity and lets face it, we are inherently stupid!

There are advantages and disadvantages to being in a larger or smaller tribe.

Tribalism exists at all levels of abstraction; nations (invasions), cities (football hooligans), streets (gang warfare), and families &c. Tribalism is a fundamental feature of human beings and it evolved to assist survival in hostile environments.

The question is: do we want to live in a hostile environment?

 

[bhsup]

Obviously it is up to the people of the UK to determine, but I personally would be a bit sad to see my mother country of old split asunder.

 

[Figaro]

With respect, I think you're reading a little into it. Being Welsh (or indeed Monegasque for that matter) isn't by definition anti-English. Wanting devolution or independence for Wales doesn't mean I believe Wales to be "superior" or more deserving of it. What about people of dual nationality, who feel they "belong" to more than one country? While I'd agree that extolling difference for its own sake is a pointless exercise (re Football hooliganism), I fail to see how Welsh independence would fuel a hostile environment from anyone's point of view.

 

[Arwon]

If the UK split up they wouldn't vote for us. There'd be no happy love-ins. Scotland and Wales would engage in pointed snubs, if politics was allowed into their voting at all.
Although I like to think that even the Scots and Welsh have more taste than to vote for '1,2,3 Tanzen!', that probably also means that they won't choose to vote for scantily clad air hostesses.
I may be wrong.

Hey, if the Bosnians and Serbians vote for each other, it'd happen in the former UK, too. Just remember, there's plenty of people living on the "wrong" side of the borders and stuff.

 

[Verbose]

Devolve away, while integrating the lot into the EU, is what I say!

 

[Cuivienen]

Honestly, I don't care too much. Devolution was poorly done in the first place, with the Scottish Parliament getting more powers than the Welsh Assembly, and no English Parliament at all. I don't really care whether Scotland becomes independent one way or other other, though I must say that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is a much less catchy name.

 

[silver 2039]

It is the people's choice in the end. So if they want it I suppose thats how it will be since I doubt England would be willing to fight a war to keep the UK intact.