UK Politics VI - Will Britain Steir to Karmer Waters?

[Lexicus]

I can not help wondering what would have happened in the USA, if their Secret Service had
decided to conceal the identity of the murderer and would be assassin of Donald Trump.

I mean probably pretty much nothing tbh

I hope to one day live in an Ivory Tower or a petty gated community and tell the peasants not to go wild over a few knife incidents...people get cut everyday in their kitchens and we don't see any ruckus over that.

Aren't you Polish? You are so ****ed by fascism that you're defending people who think you're a subhuman lmao

 

[EnglishEdward]

The fact that they've continued rioting disproves this.

Sadly, once started, riots and wars take on a life of their own.

 

[Gorbles]

Sadly, once started, riots and wars take on a life of their own.

Interesting. So we can't blame politicians or other public figures (or figures exposed to the public by social media, etc) because they're "just asking questions", and we can't attribute ongoing misinformation to the people currently rioting about said misinformation because they just can't help themselves.

I don't recall this ever being the case for, say, BLM. I specifically remember quite a lot of targeted blame and assignation at it, the movement, anyone associated with it, possible leaders, etc, et al.

 

[Ordnael]

Aren't you Polish? You are so ****ed by fascism that you're defending people who think you're a subhuman lmao

I am from Britain's oldest ally nation...lmao

Knife incidents happen. They're tragic, and the one in Southport especially so. But to link them to some kind of greater concern or problem requires hard evidence that you seem to lack.

I might be very wrong here, but I don't remember these kind of incidents happening...15 years ago...at the very least not against children, more like a old neighbour hates another neighbour and grabs a literal weed scythe and unlives said neighbour.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Ah yes, the great scythe uprising of '09.

 

[Gorbles]

I might be very wrong here, but I don't remember these kind of incidents happening...15 years ago...at the very least not against children, more like a old neighbour hates another neighbour and grabs a literal weed scythe and unlives said neighbour.

Plenty of reasons why you might not remember something that happened (or didn't happen) 15 years ago. Like I said, the link requires hard evidence you seem to lack.

For example, what does this mean? From 2016:

Boy, 17, fatally stabbed in Notting Hill

Folajimi Orebiyi died after being pursued down Portobello Road by youths on bicycles, according to reports

www.theguardian.com

Do we assume immigrants are involved? Race? The victim wasn't white, so what conclusions are you predisposed to believe, @Ordnael?

Just as the perpetrator of the horrors in Southport was born in Cardiff, what exactly is a "reasonable" concern, here?

Knife crime is one thing. "people are scared of being called racists for blaming knife crime on immigration" is just cowardice. If that's your opinion, or @Yeekim's opinion, just say it outright. You'd be no less wrong, but at least you'd be honest about it.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I might be very wrong here, but I don't remember these kind of incidents happening...15 years ago...at the very least not against children, more like a old neighbour hates another neighbour and grabs a literal weed scythe and unlives said neighbour.

It seems that knife crime has risen nearly 80% since 2015 in the UK.

Southport stabbing: Why are knife crimes on the rise in the UK?

The Southport stabbing incident has stunned the UK, at a time when knife crimes have been surging in the country.

www.aljazeera.com

I attribute this to many things, most particularly a shortage of guns.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

Are you telling me that people will just use other weapons to do what they always would've done, if there was a gun shortage? Impossible.

(though I think the more accurate term is "scarcity")

 

[Gorbles]

Beyond the blade: the truth about knife crime in Britain

Teenage knife crime is a tabloid obsession, blamed on feral youth running riot in our cities. But the reality is much more complex – and we cannot save lives if we do not understand it

www.theguardian.com

An interesting article from 2017 that raises the impact of austerity. Not that this is the only piece to do so, nor is the Guardian the only outlet to consider such.
But a large part of the problem with historical comparisons is that the data simply didn't used to exist:

Knife Crime in England and Wales - Full Fact

In the year to September 2017, there were just under 37,500 recorded offences involving the use of a knife or sharp instrument in England and Wales.

fullfact.org

At best, I'm able to source some statistics from the late 00s, but not much / any beyond that. The Full Fact article is quite useful though.

Are you telling me that people will just use other weapons to do what they always would've done, if there was a gun shortage? Impossible.

Normally the Crime Survey for England and Wales is a better indicator of trends over time than the police figures. But knife crime is one of the exceptions, because offences involving weapons are relatively rare—less than 1% of all recorded crimes are offences involving the use of a knife. That means a sample survey isn’t very good at picking up changes.

Sorry to interrupt whatever ideological position you were about to go on about, but no, that's not necessarily the case.

(the quote is from the Full Fact article I linked in this post)

 

[Senethro]

Are you telling me that people will just use other weapons to do what they always would've done, if there was a gun shortage? Impossible.

Yes, and thats good. Now, on your way.

 

[Gorbles]

Yes, and thats good. Now, on your way.

This is valid in that knives are inherently less dangerous than guns, but he's still wrong I think

 

[Lexicus]

Are you telling me that people will just use other weapons to do what they always would've done, if there was a gun shortage? Impossible.

(though I think the more accurate term is "scarcity")

Yes of course, this is why all major country militaries save a lot of money by issuing the infantry knives instead of automatic rifles

 

[Yeekim]

I'm saying it full stop, the only people who want the UK to age to death for the sake of keeping out immigrants are racist, I said it and I meant it

Q.E.D...

Let's see what he considers concerns and how he can evidence their existence in the UK specifically.

Let me take a step back here. I believe it is ultimately possible to have too much of anything. As a rough analogy, drinking eating and physical activity are all necessary to stay alive... but these activities will also become harmful, even fatal, when done in excess: drinking six liters of water in three hours can kill you.

Similarly, a degree of immigration is clearly beneficial, but there are associated costs as well, both direct and indirect. At some point the costs (at least for a generation) likely start to outweigh the benefits. I have no idea whether the UK has a long way till that point or is already past it.

This would by no means be a simple calculation - the costs and benefits would affect different social groups and localities unevenly and would come into play at different times, insofar as they would be objectively quantifiable at all.

As a random example... suppose a community where violent crime was previously non-existent receives 1,000 immigrants, just 1% of whom form a gang and get into habit of robbing phones from kids at knifepoint (something which might not have occurred had there been just 100 of them) ... how do you price that cost vs the benefits the group brings? Just the cost of dozen cheap smartphones? Or also the time, stress and fear of 1,000 local mothers who are now too worried to let their kids commute to school on their own and start driving them there instead? Costs associated with catching, prosecuting, re-socializing/rehabilitating the offenders (which might be taken on...or not)?

Before a society can even get to productive discussion about this, two things are needed imho - honest acknowledgement that there are immigration has also negative effects and costs associated with it - and as much as unbiased statistics about these as possible. A lot of European countries don't seem to do well in either regard, UK included. I don't have evidence you're asking for, only anecdotes and no easy way to separate disinfo from truth.

Things are further complicated by more unfortunate life facts, namely:
- that some people totally are racist;
- that being racist does not automatically invalidate all concerns they may have;
- that existing framework of international treaties, while being A Good Thing in general (we should NOT be returning to the world described in Remarque's Flotsam and Arc de Triomphe, with stateless and/or refugees being ping-ponged across state borders with no way out) are quite easily exploited by criminals, which breeds additional resentment.

 

[Senethro]

Q.E.D...

Let me take a step back here. I believe it is ultimately possible to have too much of anything. As a rough analogy, drinking eating and physical activity are all necessary to stay alive... but these activities will also become harmful, even fatal, when done in excess: drinking six liters of water in three hours can kill you.

Similarly, a degree of immigration is clearly beneficial, but there are associated costs as well, both direct and indirect. At some point the costs (at least for a generation) likely start to outweigh the benefits. I have no idea whether the UK has a long way till that point or is already past it.

This would by no means be a simple calculation - the costs and benefits would affect different social groups and localities unevenly and would come into play at different times, insofar as they would be objectively quantifiable at all.

As a random example... suppose a community where violent crime was previously non-existent receives 1,000 immigrants, just 1% of whom form a gang and get into habit of robbing phones from kids at knifepoint (something which might not have occurred had there been just 100 of them) ... how do you price that cost vs the benefits the group brings? Just the cost of dozen cheap smartphones? Or also the time, stress and fear of 1,000 local mothers who are now too worried to let their kids commute to school on their own and start driving them there instead? Costs associated with catching, prosecuting, re-socializing/rehabilitating the offenders (which might be taken on...or not)?

Before a society can even get to productive discussion about this, two things are needed imho - honest acknowledgement that there are immigration has also negative effects and costs associated with it - and as much as unbiased statistics about these as possible. A lot of European countries don't seem to do well in either regard, UK included. I don't have evidence you're asking for, only anecdotes and no easy way to separate disinfo from truth.

Things are further complicated by more unfortunate life facts, namely:
- that some people totally are racist;
- that being racist does not automatically invalidate all concerns they may have;
- that existing framework of international treaties, while being A Good Thing in general (we should NOT be returning to the world described in Remarque's Flotsam and Arc de Triomphe, with stateless and/or refugees being ping-ponged across state borders with no way out) are quite easily exploited by criminals, which breeds additional resentment.

There's a bunch of guys who have only one question, are only looking for one answer, and only have one solution. They're up to arson and attempted murder right now. Send your objections to them.

 

[Yeekim]

There's a bunch of guys who have only one question, are only looking for one answer, and only have one solution.

I think I said as much in both of my previous posts... what made you think you needed to repeat this?

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

Yes, and thats good. Now, on your way.

Make me.

Anyway, apparently this is an ongoing issue because the article posted mentions attempts to ban "zombie" and "ninja" blades (lol!) in the UK, which continues to show this is still very much an aesthetic judgement call when it comes to crafting weapons laws both in the UK and the USA. Only its knives and not firearms.
I wouldn't classify the situation as "good" or really any sort of improvement at all, unless you're just being facetious.

 

[Lexicus]

Make me.

Okay, I take out my duct tape & zip ties in one hand and my Staff of Augmented Mageflames in the other. Since we're now in a combat situation we'll have to take turns according to our initiative stat.

I wouldn't classify the situation as "good" or really any sort of improvement at all, unless you're just being facetious.

The homicide rate in the US is an entire order of magnitude higher than the UK

 

[Senethro]

I think I said as much in both of my previous posts... what made you think you needed to repeat this?

Because they're the ones preventing discussion.

Make me.

Anyway, apparently this is an ongoing issue because the article posted mentions attempts to ban "zombie" and "ninja" blades (lol!) in the UK, which continues to show this is still very much an aesthetic judgement call when it comes to crafting weapons laws both in the UK and the USA. Only its knives and not firearms.
I wouldn't classify the situation as "good" or really any sort of improvement at all, unless you're just being facetious.

Uh huh, get your murder rate/violent crime rate down and then you can give advice.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

The homicide rate in the US is an entire order of magnitude higher than the UK

I suppose if the greatest concern is simply a comparison of homicide rates, you would be right. However, that the UK now quibbles about different blade types as being the instigators to mass stabbings, as per the article, sort of underlines a civilization that has yet to address the root causes of its problems.

And not to rope the US into this topic, but it just goes to show that the gun advocates here tend to have a point when they say these sorts of discussions won't end even if all the private firearms are bought back and liquidated...

 

[Yeekim]

Because they're the ones preventing discussion.

Even here between us?