The big parties expel people for a lot less. Alastair Campbell was expelled from the Labour Party of voting for the Lib Dems in the European elections and a Lib Dem was expelled for a social media post in support of a Green Party candidate standing nearby. That is a whole lot less consequential than not standing in a constituency in the General Election.
UK Politics VI - Will Britain Steir to Karmer Waters?
- Thread starter Arakhor
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Dropping the whip from MPs who vote against the government is kind of what the whips do. I do not think they are allowed to use leather ones anymore.
Ignoring the legal / party aspect for a second, working to get the Tories out was in fact, not abandoning their voters.
EnglishEdward
Deity
The conservatives were going to lose their majority at Westminster and therefore be out of government irrespective as to whether Jeremy Hunt was re-elected there or not.
A significant green vote in a constituency provides some incentive for the MP and for other future candidates to consider adopting or moving towards green policies before future elections.
If the green candidate withdraws and is not replaced; the green voters there can not express their support for green policies by voting green, and their strength is unknown, so it is very unlikely to have any greening influence on the MP or future candidates there.
A significant green vote in a constituency provides some incentive for the MP and for other future candidates to consider adopting or moving towards green policies before future elections.
If the green candidate withdraws and is not replaced; the green voters there can not express their support for green policies by voting green, and their strength is unknown, so it is very unlikely to have any greening influence on the MP or future candidates there.
Moving the goalposts to talking about Westminster when the context was local representation doesn't work, sorry.
The Greens in question decided to work to ensure that at the very least the Tory candidate (Hunt) would be defeated. This would serve their Green-voting constituents. Sorry bud, but keeping Hunt in would not. It wouldn't serve Green voters, or Lib Dem voters. It would only serve Tory voters in the area (and keep an extra seat in Westminster, seen as you insist on mentioning it).
"ah well the Tories are going to lose anyway" is how people get complacent. It was a lot of the messaging around the Brexit referendum. I'm not surprised that people don't want to rely on that kind of fake truism anymore
EnglishEdward
Deity
Jeremy Hunt is just one single Tory so you had already moved the goalpost with your plural usage.
That is absurd. If the Green candidate withdraws and is not replaced, there are no Green-voting constituents.
Pedantry is a different thing, sorry. One Tory vs. the Tories (when one affects the party as a whole regardless) is not the same as changing tack from you claiming the Greens were "abandoning" their voters and then moving to "the Tories were going to lose in Westminster anyway".
More pedantry.
The point was serving their constituents. Do you honestly think any person likely to vote Green would prefer Hunt to stay in?
EnglishEdward
Deity
Yes, Jeremy Hunt was re-elected.
General election 2024: Godalming and Ash
Conservative: Jeremy Hunt: 23,293
Liberal Democrats: Paul Follows: 22,402
Reform UK: Graham Drage: 4,815
Labour: James Walsh: 2,748
Green: Ruby Tucker: 1,243
Women's Equality: Harriet Williams 195
I don't know why he will not stand.
I guess it may be because he is happy to let all the eager beaver candidates knock themselves out first.
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EnglishEdward
Deity
I think that the people in the Godalming and Ash constituency who wanted to vote Green would like to have a Green candidate to vote for.
Which is why the Green Party was right to provide a replacement candidate.
I think differently. I think anyone voting for a non-Tory party would at least settle for, well, not a Tory, as the Tories are to the right on pretty much (if not) every position compared to the Lib Dems and Greens.
Ultimately we'll never know, but I just wanted to push back on the absurd claim that by trying to get a Tory candidate unseated is somehow abandoning the Green's voters. Particularly when under FPTP their voter share in this specific seat was very much marginal.
EnglishEdward
Deity
If the people there who wanted to vote green no longer had a green candidate to vote for, then they'd been abandoned.
The thing is that while it may be your objective, defeating Jeremy Hunt is not the only valid perspective.
Those there who considered that perspective most important could tactically vote Liberal Democrat anyway.
But those there who considered green issues more important ought to have had the opportunity to vote for a Green candidate.
And the national party 'parachuting' in a replacement Green candidate enabled them to do just that.
The thing is that while it may be your objective, defeating Jeremy Hunt is not the only valid perspective.
Those there who considered that perspective most important could tactically vote Liberal Democrat anyway.
But those there who considered green issues more important ought to have had the opportunity to vote for a Green candidate.
And the national party 'parachuting' in a replacement Green candidate enabled them to do just that.
That may be your perspective, but that doesn't make it in any way fact.
I don't have an objective here. But I'm glad you concede it's a valid perspective. It's a good change from "absurd" earlier.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Your objective here, is as always, to quibble.
That's cute, but I sincerely believe everything I've said on this topic.
I thought you were all in favour of local determination anyhow? Didn't realise you were such a fan of big government.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Local determination means letting the would be green voters vote for a Green party candidate.
Alas, FPTP says no to that kind of representation.
You know as well as I how votes cast work. Just as I know that whoever I vote for won't get a seat, the people in Hunt's constituency who trend Green know that their preferred candidate never will.
You're attempting to admonish these individual councillors for depriving voters of an option they never realistically had. Which is odd, because as I understand it you understand their options very well. Why?
EnglishEdward
Deity
On the contrary. If there is a Green party candidate standing, they have the
very real option of voting for that Green candidate.
The fact that a Green candidate there was unlikely to win is beside the point.
Demonstration of increasing green support in 2024 there now can influence
other candidates regarding green policy in future elections there.
