UK Politics VI - Will Britain Steir to Karmer Waters?

[Gorbles]

On the contrary. If there is a Green party candidate standing, they have the
very real option of voting for that Green candidate.

The fact that a Green candidate there was unlikely to win is beside the point.

Au contraire, it's central to my point. Politics is about measurable outcomes, no? Not idealistic fairy tales, right?

This was a group of people trying to achieve a measurable outcome. You can disagree with it as much as you like, I don't mind, but they were in no way abandoning their voters. They were trying to achieve material change knowing that otherwise their presence would have no impact on any outcome, except literally splitting the vote.

And I'm sorry, but ~1,000 votes in that constituency isn't influencing anyone or anything. On top of that, the objective record states, our political parties (including, infamously, the Lib Dems), only ever move right to compete for votes. They don't move left. At least in modern politics. Even New Labour brought in decidedly right-leaning policies in the early-to-mid-00s to maintain relevance (to say nothing of the fun that was Iraq).

But hey, maybe in a few years you can tell me I was wrong. Regardless, you certainly can't say that with any confidence right now.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I regard democracy, the right to vote for one's candidate or party,
as much more important than one of your measurable outcomes.

Your reference to my view as an "idealistic fairy tale" is quite telling.

Where I live, Norwich South, the Green party came fourth in 2019.
It didn't conclude that it couldn't win in 2024 and withdraw its candidate.
The Green party candidate came second in 2024 and the Green party
has a chance of being the main challenger to Labour in 2029.

And frankly I am very suspicious of withdrawals in favour of another party.
You may wish to take the former Green candidate's reasons in good faith.
I don't, I can not be certain that a late withdrawal has not been bought.

 

[Gorbles]

I regard democracy, the right to vote for one's candidate or party,
as much more important than one of your measurable outcomes.

I'm sure you do. I regard a party's members to be integral to that democracy, and do not find it persuasive to claim that any vote is a done deal; that people shouldn't try their utmost to enact change.

Your reference to my view as an "idealistic fairy tale" is quite telling.

Nah, no need to play the victim. It's what leftists like myself are repeatedly told. I'm simply applying it pragmatically. It's nothing to do with you or your views.

And frankly I am very suspicious of withdrawals in favour of another party.

You can be whatever you want to be. But again, this is a very different tack to accusing them of abandoning their potential constituents.

As for Norwich South, ~1,000 votes in Hunt's constituency are nothing like over 8,000 in yours. Progression isn't necessarily linear, just like the exponential increase of Reform in Norwich South, or the fact that the Lib Dems in fact lowered their voter share between 2019 and 2024.

 

[Samson]

Why won't Hunt run for leader? (I assume he was reelected as MP?)

Just FYI, you can get Hunt for next Conservative leader for 300/1 (or 301 decimal ;P). Considering he has a higher profile and similar "left wing" views to Tom Tugendhat at 5/1 (6 decimal) I think this could be a pretty incitefull post.

 

[Nick723]

Regarding the greens in Hunt’s constituency, this actually happened more widely.

In 8 seats in Scotland, if the greens hadn’t put forward a candidate then the SNP (rather than labour) would have won. Of course, this assumes green votes go to SNP.

I am with @EnglishEdward here though. If you want to represent people, the minimum you need to do is put forward candidates. You have to start somewhere.

Also, even in Hunt’s constituency I actually suspect it was likely that he would have got in even if the greens didn’t stand. Some green voters would have backed labour, some stayed at home, some may have even have voted for Hunt.

 

[Gorbles]

Also, even in Hunt’s constituency I actually suspect it was likely that he would have got in even if the greens didn’t stand. Some green voters would have backed labour, some stayed at home, some may have even have voted for Hunt.

shrugs

Likely or not, parachuting a candidate in factually guarantees vote splitting. I can see the rationale for doing this even if there was no guaranteed outcome.

 

[innonimatu]

Regarding the greens in Hunt’s constituency, this actually happened more widely.

In 8 seats in Scotland, if the greens hadn’t put forward a candidate then the SNP (rather than labour) would have won. Of course, this assumes green votes go to SNP.

I am with @EnglishEdward here though. If you want to represent people, the minimum you need to do is put forward candidates. You have to start somewhere.

Also, even in Hunt’s constituency I actually suspect it was likely that he would have got in even if the greens didn’t stand. Some green voters would have backed labour, some stayed at home, some may have even have voted for Hunt.

There is no reason at all to assume that those votrs would have gone to the SNP. Their electoral collapse was borne out of disgust with the corruption and the by now obvious treachery of the party against its purported main cause (independence). People voting for other parties, especially for minor parties, were imo sending a message they were disgusted.

 

[Kyriakos]

You can have a civil war before independence (Greece in the 1820s is a good example), but you should also at least strive to achieve independence and postpone the left vs right and similar stuff for later. Scotland didn't even have to fight an actual independence war and still failed (though tbh it was far more ridiculous in the case of Catalonia).

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Be big if it happened

Home Office considers proscribing EDL under terror laws after Southport riot

Angela Rayner says ‘thuggish behaviour’ has ‘absolutely no place in our democracy’

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Arakhor]

I'm uncomfortable with the widening scope of anti-terror legislation, especially when used against protestors, but I can't say I will shed many tears for the proscribing of yet another Islamophobic and fascist-adjacent group.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Three girls were stabbed to death, others badly injured.

It appears that the police have arrested the culprit.

The thing is people very naturally wonder who did it,
where they were from, what is their motivation,
was it misogynistic Incel, religious hatred, a schizo,
or whatever, were they previously known to the
mental health services, the police services etc etc?

Now the police could be a little open and provide an informative statement,
but instead they decide to not even say who that person is.

In the absence of information, people often attend to assume
the worse, and their worse is likely to reflect their biases and fears.

Perhaps it is the withholding of that person's name that enabled
the conspiracy theories to grow, and the protest turn into a riot.

No matter, sour grapes Remainers in the media only too eager
to blame Nigel Farage for asking some natural questions.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Now the police could be a little open and provide an informative statement,
but instead they decide to not even say who that person is.

the culprit was a minor, which is why they have not released information

The thing is people very naturally wonder who did it,
where they were from, what is their motivation,
was it misogynistic Incel, religious hatred, a schizo,
or whatever, were they previously known to the
mental health services, the police services etc etc?

I also wonder (naturally) at some things, I don't go about attacking the homes of people who have nothing to do with those things

Perhaps it is the withholding of that person's name that enabled
the conspiracy theories to grow, and the protest turn into a riot.

Perhaps it was the baseless and inflammatory speculations by Farage and his ilk. Maybe idk

 

[Arakhor]

If these "natural questions" somehow inspired EDL members to attack a mosque, then I would suggest that they were very much not natural and those who spread those "questions" should be interrogated for inciting violence.

I certainly wouldn't be flailing around, trying to blame alleged Remainers eight years after the referendum.

 

[Arakhor]

I went looking for an article specifically mentioning this and found one on The Guardian. Perhaps Farage has forgotten that he is (finally) now an MP - if he really was that concerned, why didn't he raise those questions in the House of Commons, like other MPs would?

 

[EnglishEdward]

If these "natural questions" somehow inspired EDL members to attack a mosque, then I would suggest that they were very much not natural and those who spread those "questions" should be interrogated for inciting violence.

Those natural questions exist. They exist in my mind, and I dare say in many other people' minds.

The concept that people should be arrested and interrogated merely for asking natural questions is more North Korean than British.

I certainly wouldn't be flailing around, trying to blame alleged Remainers eight years after the referendum.

I don't blame Remainers for either the stabbings or the riot, merely for trying to blame Nigel Farage.

I went looking for an article specifically mentioning this and found one on The Guardian. Perhaps Farage has forgotten that he is (finally) now an MP - if he really was that concerned, why didn't he raise those questions in the House of Commons, like other MPs would?

Because the murders didn't happen in his constituency.

 

[Senethro]

god the natural questions askers are so unbelievably coy

 

[Gorbles]

I don't blame Remainers for either the stabbings or the riot, merely for trying to blame Nigel Farage.

And yet, who cares? People opposed to Farage are likely but not exclusively guaranteed to have voted for Remain however many moons ago, but their proclivity for Remain has nothing to do with it. Your obsession remains.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Well you obviously care or you would not have bothered to reply.

 

[Gorbles]

Well you obviously care or you would not have bothered to reply.

I care about the discussion, sure. That wasn't the question though. Care to try again?

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

The concept that people should be arrested and interrogated merely for asking natural questions is more North Korean than British.

Who's being arrested and interrogated for asking questions, natural or unnatural?