Ukraine Crisis master thread

[Verbose]

Yeah, where has NATO breathed even a word it would even consider a Ukranian application for membership?

Part of the problem NOW, is that whatever process there would have been in Ukraine after the appointing of this very provisional government, is that it's got a bloody big Russian stick poking out of it. And that wasn't inserted by any Ukranians at least.

 

[Kyriakos]

Do you really think joining NATO is a process that can be completed unilaterally by passing a bill, application or whatever?

If it serves the US administration?

hell yeah i do

 

[Winner]

It seems, Ukrainian parliament will discuss a proposed NATO membership law. This is exactly what they should do now if they want to provoke further Russian intervention.

How surprising they seek membership in a defensive alliance after being, y'know, invaded by Russia. It doesn't make any sense!

 

[red_elk]

How surprising they seek membership in a defensive alliance after being, y'know, invaded by Russia. It doesn't make any sense!

May be it does. Let's see whether Russia will consider possibility to have NATO bases there as a threat to its vital interests, and turn on Cuban Missile Crisis mode. And check if anybody really wants to go to war over it.

 

[Winner]

May be it does. Let's see whether Russia will consider possibility to have NATO bases there as a threat to its vital interests, and turn on Cuban Missile Crisis mode. And check if anybody really wants to go to war over it.

Translated from Russian-think: "we are still locked in a Cold War mindset, seeing NATO and the West as bloodthirsty capitalist enemies who are only waiting for an opportunity to invade Mother Russia".

Hint: if you don't want your former republics entering NATO, don't threaten them, don't bully them, don't embargo them, and most of all, refrain from invading them over trumped up accusations.

If you continue acting as a rogue state which is considered a threat by all its neighbours, don't be surprised if these countries seek protection in the West.

 

[Kyriakos]

So, is this thread just so that some will troll russian posters?

Cause i don't see any news on the Ukraine, and the glorious invasion seems to not have produced images of dead people. So what is the crisis currently, other than a 'nazi' party in the illegal Ukrainian government?

 

[red_elk]

Translated from Russian-think: "we are still locked in a Cold War mindset, seeing NATO and the West as bloodthirsty capitalist enemies who are only waiting for an opportunity to invade Mother Russia".

I think, still locked in a Cold War mindset is the one who preserved Cold War military alliance. Warsaw pact was disbanded long ago.

Hint: if you don't want your former republics entering NATO, don't threaten them, don't bully them, don't embargo them, and most of all, refrain from invading them over trumped up accusations.

Sure, we "threatened" them with 15-bn credit, gas discounts and access to our markets. But sorry, if their new leaders are taking power by force and want to join anti-Russian military alliance, this is not going to happen one way or another.

You may go ask Lithuania to blockade Kaliningrad district. Don't forget to ask Estonia for assistance, they have tank.

 

[Kyriakos]

You may go ask Lithuania to blockade Kaliningrad district. Don't forget to ask Estonia for assistance, they have tank.

That was a low-blow...

I love it

 

[Winner]

So, is this thread just so that some will troll russian posters?

And why don't you mind your own business? I am not trolling them, unless trolling now means "to ask serious questions in a slightly sarcastic manner".

red elk just confirmed that he considers a sovereign choice by a neighbouring country to approach NATO as a cause that would justify Russian invasion of said country. Do you agree with such a sentiment? If you do, say so, if you don't, please just be quiet instead of posting more of your double-standard nonsense.

Sure, we "threatened" them with 15-bn credit, gas discounts and access to our markets. But sorry, if their new leaders are taking power by force and want to join anti-Russian military alliance, this is not going to happen one way or another.

You may go ask Lithuania to blockade Kaliningrad district. Don't forget to ask Estonia for assistance, they have tank.

The arrogance and wilful ignorance of the reality of Russian politics vis-a-vis the ex-Soviet countries displayed in this post is unbelievable.

 

[red_elk]

That was a low-blow...

This wasn't even a joke.
http://rt.com/news/tanks-estonia-borrows-latvia/

 

[Yeekim]

Don't forget to ask Estonia for assistance, they have tank.

No, actually we don 't.
We're counting more on anti-tank systems.

EDIT: Hah, ninjae'd.
EDIT2:

anti-Russian military alliance

NATO has not been "anti-Russian" since the end of Cold War.
Firstly, it is a purely defensive alliance. The only way Russia would find itself at war with NATO is if Russia attacked a NATO member first.
Secondly, you might want to bring yourself up to speed with the NATO-Russian cooperation that has been going on for nearly 20 years.
Last bit of news before Russia once again grew too small for Russian troops:

04 Dec. 2013
NATO-Russia Council approves ambitious cooperation plan for 2014

NATO Foreign Ministers together with their Russian counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, on Wednesday (4 December 2013) agreed to launch a joint trust fund project to dispose of obsolete and dangerous ammunition in the Kaliningrad region and discussed pressing international security issues, with a focus on Afghanistan, Iran and Syria. “Today, we agreed to launch a project for the disposal of obsolete and dangerous ammunition in a safe, efficient and environmentally friendly way”, the Secretary General said. “By doing so, we will make the environment safer for all those who live near these stocks of dangerous ammunition. And we will create the conditions for former military sites to be converted to civilian use.

EDIT 3: Looking at the map, I wonder why do we never hear Switzerland, Austria, Ireland or Sweden btich and moan about "being encroached by NATO".

 

[Kyriakos]

This wasn't even a joke.
http://rt.com/news/tanks-estonia-borrows-latvia/

In the course of European arms cuts and sales, the armed forces of Estonia have had to call on their neighbors in Latvia to borrow a tank…because they did not have any.

Far from planning to build a one-tank army, Estonians will only use the Latvian tank once, in a military exercise.

The borrowed Russian-made T-55 vehicle is not a combat tank. The Latvians bought it from the Czech Republic for psychological training of its army to fight armored vehicles.

I can see why they are in Nato

Iirc Czechia has 20 tanks or something, though, so they are not at risk.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I think, still locked in a Cold War mindset is the one who preserved Cold War military alliance. Warsaw pact was disbanded long ago.

Maybe NATO would have disappeared if the US collapsed.

 

[Verbose]

So, is this thread just so that some will troll russian posters?

Cause i don't see any news on the Ukraine, and the glorious invasion seems to not have produced images of dead people. So what is the crisis currently, other than a 'nazi' party in the illegal Ukrainian government?

Problem with both your post here, and the pronouncements on the Ukranians situation coming out of the Kremlin, and Russia state media, right now, is that its' arguing both sides. It's become a series of responses to arguments against it supplied by self — what the Ukranians are supposed to say and be about, to which Russia responds after asserting it. It's completely Kafkaesque. Russia isn't actually waiting to see what might happen, or listen to what might be said, in anticipation it supplies both sides of the conversation to itself.

Thus, at least the current Russian government is a liability for everyone, and a clearly destabilising factor in world politics.

 

[Yeekim]

I can see why they are in Nato

I'd add that, afaik, Estonia is one of the few NATO member besides US, UK and Greece that has actually made a point of fulfilling the commitment to spend 2% of GDP on defense.

We just haven't seen much point in creating tank forces.

 

[Akka]

Would be nice to start with granting at least some official status to the language, in the republic where 3/4 of population consider it native and where 97% of people use it for communication. Ukrainian authorities (absolutely no nationalists among them, as we remember) constantly try to abolish it.

Again another red (huhu) herring.
The abolition of Russian as an official language by the new Ukraine government was a very stupid thing, but for the rest it was mostly used a propaganda pretext.

1) It was actually vetoed, so it never went beyond the proposition stage.

2) As an autonomous region with special language laws, Crimea wouldn't be subject to it in any case.

 

[red_elk]

Again another red (huhu) herring.
The abolition of Russian as an official language by the new Ukraine government was a very stupid thing, but for the rest it was mostly used a propaganda pretext.

Russian had official status only in some regions and for a short period of Yanukovich rule. Status-quo for Ukraine for a long time was no official status for Russian language.

2) As an autonomous region with special language laws, Crimea wouldn't be subject to it in any case.

Crimea already had state Ukrainian language imposed on them before 2010 and as I said that was major cause for all discontent and separatism there. Learn something about the region finally, before arguing.

 

[keli]

Breaking News:

Link to video.

Snipers which first shot at the Maidan weren't hired by Janukovich but by somebody from the new coalition.

 

[Akka]

Crimea already had state Ukrainian language imposed on them before 2010 and as I said that was major cause for all discontent and separatism there.

Oh yeah, can't imagine how oppressive it is to be required to use your own country language at least as a co-official one ! SUCH INJUSTICE !

Learn something about the region finally, before arguing.

You are the one who IS Russian and still didn't even knew that Crimea had provisionnal laws about having Russian as a main language due to its autonomous status.
So keep your misplaced arrogance to yourself and refrain from trying to lord over anyone about lack of knowledge.

 

[red_elk]

Oh yeah, can't imagine how oppressive it is to be required to use your own country language at least as a co-official one ! You are the one who IS Russian and still didn't even knew that Crimea had provisionnal laws about having Russian as a main language due to its autonomous status.

I repeat, Ukrainian was the only official language in Crimea, despite Russian was de-facto used by majority of people. Continue educating yourself.