Ukraine Crisis master thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Mar 4, 2014.

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  1. CavLancer

    CavLancer This aint fertilizer

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    About the last thing on the planet I'm going to do is defend Hillary Clinton. McCain lost the election and is a nobody. Neither suggested nuclear war in response to sanctions or even in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    "Kiselyov was named by President Vladimir Putin in December as the head of a new state news agency whose task will be to portray Russia in the best possible light." -Reuters

    Do you feel he accomplished this?
     
  2. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    I missed the line where the journalist actually threatened the US with nuclear war in response to sanctions. Could you possibly quote it?
     
  3. CavLancer

    CavLancer This aint fertilizer

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    MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Kremlin-backed journalist issued a stark warning to the United States about Moscow's nuclear capabilities on Sunday as the White House threatened sanctions over Crimea's referendum on union with Russia.
    "Russia is the only country in the world that is realistically capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash," television presenter Dmitry Kiselyov said on his weekly current affairs show.

    http://news.yahoo.com/russia-turn-u-...2--sector.html
     
  4. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    "USA is the country capable of turning Russia into radioactive ash".
    Did I just threaten Russia with nuclear war? :)

    What was the context of the journalist's statement?
     
  5. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    If I wanted to tread moral high ground I'd arrange a trip to Antarctica.

    It's probably an inexpensive brand, and vodka can be bought locally in the US for around the same price.

    Unintentionally, for the most part... If someone was going to avoid spreading it, that person would first have to recognize its presence, and then decide that the value of the article is entirely diminished by it. I'd have to reread the thread, but I think it's safe to proceed in thinking that it's being spread in this thread.
    Spoiler :
    Especially when one tries to shoehorn BRICS countries and the other 'usual suspects' into the RoW to try to make a point about rationality via majority.
     
  6. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    I've just read an article in a Dutch newspaper (www.nrc.nl) that Oleksandr Toertsjynov, the Ukranian interim president, claims that the Crimean referendum is a farce.

    Now, I have no doubt this referendum is indeed a farce, for a great variety of reasons. Yet, it seems rather obvious that a solid majorty of Crimeans actually do want to be Rusians officially.

    Are we (id est the Free West) really trying to resist a Crimean shift, because we understand Putin is nothing but a dictator? As much as I dislike Putin's ways, I can't really see the point of Crimea being a part of Ukrain, if a solid majority of its inhabitants does not want it.
     
  7. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    The problem is not strictly about Crimea becoming Russian, it's very obviously about the whole Russian shenanigans and aggression.

    If Ukraine had stabilized, then held a free referendum about Crimea, and then handed it to Russia, there would have been of course little to no complaints.

    But, it seems pretty obvious that, you know, invading a neighbour and conquering part of its land, is rather frowned upon.
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    As Verbose put it, "Which requires actual processes to allow it"
    Though he was talking about democratic way to replace Putin.
     
  9. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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  10. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Most likely hoax, this news is a few days old, not confirmed so far.
     
  11. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    It's not that hard to install these processes. It seems to me the Free West does not want to install these proper processes....

    I forgot about that :) . Must have been playing too many games of EU IV :cool: .
     
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Yes, it's not hard, provided there is a will to do it. Which apparently was not the case during the last 20 years.
     
  13. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    I must admit you raise a good point here! Why haven't the Crimean people been more vocal about this subject for the last 25 years?
     
  14. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    There was no will from the central government. Crimeans didn't have right to organize secession on their own, they would do it if they could. Separatist pro-Russian sentiments in the region have always been strong.
     
  15. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    You are not informed well enough. Investigate the matter before arguing.
     
  16. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    The process actually does exist.
    For someone who claim to have spent so much efforts to know everything before objectively deciding that Russian media was the dispenser of truth and the entire West was propaganda, you show a staggering amount of ignorance on the subject.

    Regardless, in any case, it's an internal problem that should be regulated by Ukraine, not by invasion.
     
  17. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Crimea is less of a problem than the principles at stake if this kind of break-up catches on.
     
  18. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Not doing it at gun-point is a good start. Or a necessary one actually.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Yeah, as in case with democratic procedure of replacement of Russian president.

    Is it your understanding of my position? :mischief:
    What can I say, very intelligent.
     
  20. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Not enough time was llowed to elapse to make any kind of ruling about where the new Kiev govt would have ended up on the issue.

    That is a Russian problem here — jumping in all gung-ho well ahead of anything actionable that could be argued warranted it. There is a difference between actionable events actually transpiring, and acting on claims of possible coming events one makes oneself.

    IF there had been a break-down of law and order, and real threats to Crimean civilians, probably even actual violence perpetrated, and documented in a sufficient fashion to satisfy not Russians alone, but scepticts outside it, THEN the west really would be a in quandry over what might be a reasonable response to Russian actions in the Crimea. The west does this kind of thing all the time. It only moves when there are dead bodies. But then it gets hammered for not moving until there are dead bodies. Well, this situation is part of why the dead bodies tend to be necessary in this world of bad faith and little trust. You need to wait until you have a clearly actionable situation.

    As it is, that Russia's move needs a rsponse is not a quandry. What is a EU quandry is how far it wants to go in the sanctions department given the clarity of the Russian breach of faith with just about everyone. And it's a quandry because the EU doesn't actually want to do all that much, but the Russian heavy-handedness does require it, being on the overly blatant side.
     
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