Ukraine Crisis master thread

[red_elk]

That is a Russian problem here — jumping in all gung-ho well ahead of anything actionable that could be argued warranted it.

There was a limited window of opportunity to do it without open military aggression.

IF there had been a break-down of law and order, and real threats to Crimean civilians, probably even actual violence perpetrated, and documented in a sufficient fashion to satisfy not Russians alone, but scepticts outside it, THEN the west really would be a in quandry over what might be a reasonable response to Russian actions in the Crimea.

Ever wondered why after two Chechen wars, "brutalizing of Chechen population by Russian military", the percentage of Russians in Chechnya reduced from ~25% to about 3%? I bet you haven't even heard about it. The West doesn't give a crap about Russians being mistreated or killed anywhere, that's what we learnt very well. We can only count on ourselves.

 

[kramerfan86]

You are not informed well enough. Investigate the matter before arguing.

Rather than throwing up this weak response all the time when someone disagrees with you, why dont you actually bring forth evidence they are wrong?


Off that subject, these sanctions the US and EU threw out are fairly weak, they are pretty much just inviting Putin to invade and annex more of the country at this point. Oh Im sorry, they are inviting pro-independence militias* to take control.

*militias who of course some how got ahold of good equipment and matching good condition uniforms, not suspicious at all

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Rather than throwing up this weak response all the time when someone disagrees with you, why dont you actually bring forth evidence they are wrong?

I've already mentioned here about referendums yesterday.

I've posted huge amounts of evidence about other things considering Maidan, wasted a lot of time and energy on it and got banned for "spam". It is much easier to deny or just ignore evidence than to post and translate it. And that's what some people here tend to do all the time when they see the words "Russia", "Putin" or <the enemy of Democracy&#8482; #1 in Middle East>.

So no, thanks. In the age of Google and broadband Internet one can verify facts by himself before making an assumption.

Off that subject, these sanctions the US and EU threw out are fairly weak

BTW. They are very beneficial. We need more of such sanctions, please!

 

[Yeekim]

Ever wondered why as a result of two Chechen wars, "brutalizing of Chechen population by Russian military", the percentage of Russians in Chechnya reduced from ~25% to about 3%? I bet you haven't even heard about it. The West doesn't give a crap about Russians being mistreated or killed anywhere, that's what we learnt very well. We can only count on ourselves.

Why the part in quotation marks - or are you denying this happened?

As for the question, I would presume it was because those who weren't killed by either side took an eminently sensible decision to flee the warzone?

 

[kramerfan86]

I've already mentioned here about referendums yesterday.

I've posted huge amounts of evidence about other things considering Maidan, wasted a lot of time and energy on it and got banned for "spam". It is much easier to deny or just ignore evidence than to post and translate it. And that's what some people here tend to do all the time when they see the words "Russia", "Putin" or <the enemy of Democracy™ #1 in Middle East>.

So no, thanks. In the age of Google and broadband Internet one can verify facts by himself before making an assumption.

Well I know for myself personally when someone's only response is "oh well you just need to research this better" but they dont actually explain how the statement is wrong I tend to just run off the assumption they dont actually have any evidence seeing as those sort of empty statements are regularly seen from lying politicians dodging a point.

 

[Light Cleric]

I've already mentioned here about referendums yesterday.

I've posted huge amounts of evidence about other things considering Maidan, wasted a lot of time and energy on it and got banned for "spam". It is much easier to deny or just ignore evidence than to post and translate it. And that's what some people here tend to do all the time when they see the words "Russia", "Putin" or <the enemy of Democracy&#8482; #1 in Middle East>.

So no, thanks. In the age of Google and broadband Internet one can verify facts by himself before making an assumption.

BTW. They are very beneficial. We need more of such sanctions, please!

Somehow I get the feeling there's more to the ban story than you let on.

I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously on a discussion forum when you simply label others uninformed, attempt to discredit sources that are inconvenient, and then refuse to provide any sort of argument of your own or any idea of what an "actual" source would be, all the while pretending you are the arbiter of truth.

 

[Borachio]

I think it's all very interesting, myself. And taking into account different perspectives is always useful, imo.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Meanwhile, somewhere in Kiev, a far right group called the "Right Sector" wa- supporter, decides to take the fight to... anyone?

The leader of ultranationalist group Right Sector, Dmitry Yarosh, has threatened to destroy Russian pipelines on Ukrainian territory if a diplomatic solution is not reached with Moscow.

In a fiery address loaded warmongering rhetoric, Yarosh told his followers they should be ready to resist the Russian “occupiers.” The leader of the Right Sector made his address to the coup-appointed government in Kiev, as Crimeans made their way to ballots Sunday to vote to join with Russia or to remain within Ukraine.

“We cannot allow the enemy to carry out a blitzkrieg attack on Ukrainian territory. We mustn’t forget that Russia makes money sending its oil through our pipelines to the West. We will destroy these pipelines and deprive our enemy of its source of income,” Yarosh said.

Continuing the bellicose rhetoric, Yarosh appealed to his followers, urging them to take up arms against Russia, if a diplomatic solution cannot be reached.

Yarosh said that Crimea was too small to satisfy the appetite of the “Russian Empire,” and that the Kremlin would seek to take over the whole of Ukraine.

“Let the ground burn under the feet of the occupiers! Let them choke on their own blood when they attack our territory! Not one step back! We will not allow Moscow’s beserk, totalitarian regime to spark a Third World War!”

The phrase “Not one step back!” was used in a famous order by Joseph Stalin during WWII and became a popular slogan for the Soviet people’s resistance against the Nazis. Yarosh’s use of this particular rhetoric attracted attention from many observers, given that the members of his Right Sector group are known to use Nazi insignia.

Russia put Yarosh on an international wanted list and charged him with inciting terrorism after he urged Chechen terrorist leader Doku Umarov to launch attacks on Russia over the Ukrainian conflict.

Yarosh has declared his intentions of running for Ukrainian president in May.

The Right Sector movement, an amalgamation of several far-right groups, was formed in November 2013.

Members of the radical movement were very active in the violence which triggered the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovich. The Right Sector refused to recognize the Feb. 21 agreement between Yanukovich and the opposition leaders, and declared that they would fight him until his ouster.

Right Sector’s fighters used clubs, petrol bombs and firearms against the Ukrainian police. Even after the coup, some members of the movement continued to use rifles and pistols.

Last week, a proposal was submitted to the Ukrainian parliament, suggesting that Right Sector be transformed into a regular unit of the armed forces.

Welp. As it is said, it's not a revolution if there isn't a wacko who would threaten to behead or blow up everyone.

 

[kramerfan86]

I think it's all very interesting, myself. And taking into account different perspectives is always useful, imo.

Different perspectives are very interesting and useful when the different perspective can be bothered to actually share their proper perspective. When the other perspective is "well you are wrong, educate yourself" its of non-existent usefulness.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Somehow I get the feeling there's more to the ban story than you let on.

I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously on a discussion forum when you simply label others uninformed, attempt to discredit sources that are inconvenient, and then refuse to provide any sort of argument of your own or any idea of what an "actual" source would be, all the while pretending you are the arbiter of truth.

Yeah, right. I post an evidence, someone tells it is Russian propaganda and exaggerated, on the next page it will be immedeately forgotten and some time later when the discussion returns to the same subject this evidence will be just ignored. I post another evidence, and another, wasting time on nothing. And some Russian-hater will tell me to stop spamming the thread and to not discuss this side of the matter at all as if it doesn't exist.

While we're chatting about nothing here you could check on previous referendums in Crimea or just read about the history of its relations with Ukraine since 1991. I have no wish or ability to do it for you for the next few hours or day.

 

[red_elk]

Why the part in quotation marks - or are you denying this happened?

Part in quotation marks is how the war was generally described in Western mass-media.

As for the question, I would presume it was because those who weren't killed by either side took an eminently sensible decision to flee the warzone?

Everyone who could do it, fled. Many others became victims of combat actions and ethnic cleansings. Isn't it a little strange, that after years of repressions and ethnic cleansings (presumably, against Chechen people only), the percentage of Russians in the republic dropped almost to zero?

 

[Yeekim]

Everyone who could do it, fled. Many others became victims of combat actions and ethnic cleansings. Isn't it a little strange, that after years of repressions and ethnic cleansings (presumably, against Chechen people only), the percentage of Russians in the republic dropped almost to zero?

I would hazard a guess that Russians would've found it easier to leave the country than Chechens. Where were the latter to go?

I've also heard that when Grozny was levelled to the ground by artillery and airstrikes in the first war, local Russians were the ones who suffered most, since Chechens could disperse to the relatives living in the countryside.

This is not to deny the savagery of the separatists. I don't doubt that chances of survival for any Russians who elected to stay behind would have been extremely slim. Interbellum Chechnya was little else than lawless den of terrorists and kidnappers.

Yeltsin is to blame, for starting the war and demonstrating that civility, human rights and laws are worth nothing, thus fanning the flame of religious extremism.

And the West is to blame for turning a blind eye, thus contributing to the same outcome.

 

[red_elk]

And the West is to blame for turning a blind eye, thus contributing to the same outcome.

That's my point. If Russia intervened in Ukraine only after serious clashes in Crimea, we could expect the same result as it was in Chechnya. The West would put all the blame on Russian side as it always did.

 

[Akka]

The West would put all the blame on Russian side as it always did.

Yeah, the West just enjoys to torment Russia, just for kicks
Paranoid much ?

 

[Phrossack]

That's my point. If Russia intervened in Ukraine only after serious clashes in Crimea, we could expect the same result as it was in Chechnya. The West would put all the blame on Russian side as it always did.

And the Russians always dump all the blame on the evil Anglo-$axon capitali$t We$t.

 

[gay_Aleks]

When, in fact, both sides are equally terrible, and would do equally terrible things.

But you know, down with the capitalistic West/the bloody commies from Russia, no?

 

[onedreamer]

yeah you should be talking about the neonazis at the gov in Kiev and their willingness to prosecute russians in Ukraine. Because that's what the russians are talking about, not capitalists (?).

 

[Mustakrakish]

Wait... I thought sanctions were for "penetrating" Ukraine, not for "supporting Crimea's vote to secede".

Spoiler :

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama on Monday froze the U.S. assets of seven Russian officials, including top advisers to President Vladimir Putin, for their support of Crimea's vote to secede from Ukraine. The sanctions are the most comprehensive since the end of the Cold War.

Obama said he was moving to "increase the cost" to Russia, and he warned that more people could face financial punishment.

"If Russia continues to interfere in Ukraine, we stand ready to impose further sanctions," Obama said. He added in a brief statement from the White House that he still believes there could be a diplomatic resolution to the crisis and that the sanctions can be calibrated based on whether Russia escalates or pulls back in its involvement.

The Treasury Department also is imposing sanctions on four Ukrainians — including former President Viktor Yanukovych and others who have supported Crimea's separation — under existing authority under a previous Obama order. Senior administration officials also said they are developing evidence against individuals in the arms industry and those they described as "Russian government cronies" to target their assets.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-announces-sanctions-russian-officials-150411739--politics.html

 

[Agent327]

yeah you should be talking about the neonazis at the gov in Kiev and their willingness to prosecute russians in Ukraine. Because that's what the russians are talking about, not capitalists (?).

You think Ukraine parliament is run by neonazis? Should read a bit less of Russian propaganda.

 

[red_elk]

And the Russians always dump all the blame on the evil Anglo-$axon capitali$t We$t.

Yes, both sides will blame each other, as usual and no matter what. There is no point for Russia in trying to explain or justify its actions, we will be "bad guys" regardless.