Ukraine Crisis Thread III: a new European order?

Yea suggesting all US soldiers are bad people because you can pick out crimes from the worst of their ranks is about as proper as claiming a whole race are criminal scumbags because you can find stories of violence from a minority of them. Let's say you could find 500 stories like that (I highly doubt you could find anywhere close to that many), that would still be a tiny minority of the hundreds of thousands of troops who went over there.
 
@kramerfan86

A white man can't represent White race but an American soldier can represent US army.
 
Right, because Russian soldiers were so squeaky clean during the Chechen Wars. :rolleyes:

Or pretty much any war Russians have fought in, for that matter.
 
Like I said before I'm not supporting what Russia did. But compering Russia with US is just ridiculous.
 
Thats not my argument. I am just pointing out the absurdity. If something is less acceptable today then 150 years ago how come we have more of it?
We have ten times the population of the time, so even a lower percentage means a bigger number ?
No it should be apparently something extremely rare and done as a last eventuality. But again sometimes you have to enter some place swiftly to avoid future large causalities.
There were no signs about anything that could have led to future casualties (serious unrest only started after that), so even this bogus pretext is completely faulty and even self-defeating.
Russian inhabited Crimea under Russian control is perfectly justifiable. Really its much more Russian then it ever was Ukrainian....
Maybe. Not the point. Russia could have asked for a change in borders peacefully, or simply not guaranteed the Ukrainian borders in 1994 if it wasn't ready to accept them.

Regardless of your grasping at straws, Russia still invaded in a totally opportunistic manner, without even trying a fair or diplomatic solution.
 
Right, because Russian soldiers were so squeaky clean during the Chechen Wars. :rolleyes:

Or pretty much any war Russians have fought in, for that matter.
I have red recently something about Red army liberating lands from nazism and every where they went they have raped. From Belarus, Ukraine to Poland, Hungary. Raping children and old women. Quite a horror. The officers could do nothing about it. I know there are couple of studies about it plus some books. No doubt it was a very special time in many ways - like some monster was unleashed. In away simmilar to that one of nazi Germany.

We have ten times the population of the time, so even a lower percentage means a bigger number ?
Congratualations you have passed the teoretical side of the test. Now, if something is rejected in theory but is spread in practise it means its not all that totally unacceptable after all right? - Not that it gives me any joy....

There were no signs about anything that could have led to future casualties (serious unrest only started after that), so even this bogus pretext is completely faulty and even self-defeating.
No offence but your knowledge of the situation is underwhelming. There was no serious unrest in Crimea at all.

Maybe. Not the point. Russia could have asked for a change in borders peacefully, or simply not guaranteed the Ukrainian borders in 1994 if it wasn't ready to accept them.
Look I have no illusion that you posses deep enough knowledge about international relations of the time and what diplomatic possition Russia and other participants were at that time so I take it as an uninformed oppinion.

Regardless of your grasping at straws, Russia still invaded in a totally opportunistic manner, without even trying a fair or diplomatic solution.
As you probably know Russia has a naval base in Sevastopol, Crimea and have had a treaty with Ukraine on how much troops it can deploy there at any time (I think it was topped at 26.000) and that number wasnt even surpassed in any phase of the so-called "invasion".


Of course it is ridiculous. In the US, its own soldiers actually can get punished for war crimes, instead of getting medals for that.
Thats why there are cool places like Guantanamo where all these effeminate laws matter a peanut....
 
Of course it is ridiculous. In the US, its own soldiers actually can get punished for war crimes, instead of getting medals for that.

So, what will be Steven Dale Green's punishment? Prison? It's a reward not punishment...
 
The goal was to spend money on weapons. A loads of money, no wait, I mean insanely ridiculous amount of money:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2a5dce-97ed-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html

Actually the article in your link says the biggest expense of the war is paying for medical care and disability benefits to the soldiers who served in the two conflicts. So, no buying weapons was not the goal. Keep in mind that I actually participated in the Iraq war, and due to the nature of my responsibilities I was privy to our overall tactical and strategic objectives. I can tell you that the publicly stated reason was fabricated, but our real objective wasn't anything sinister either, as people like you seem to think.

Are you suggesting that we don't pay for the medical care and disability benefits for our soldiers who served honorably? And yes they did serve honorably. Even if you don't agree with the conflict they fought, they still did their duties as soldiers, sometimes even against their own personal convictions and without regard for their own safety. Now if you are suggesting that we abandon our duty to our veterans who fought just to save a few dollars, then you are truly a terrible person. Especially since I am one of those veterans who is receiving disability and medical care because of injuries sustained during my service.




Nope. The article says the number of deaths attributed to the invasion, but not the number of deaths the US was directly responsible for. And there is a difference between the two. Deaths attributed to the invasion can include people the US killed, people our adversary killed, and people who died indirectly due to shortages of food, water, and medical care due to infrastructure damaged in the fighting. I asked you to provide a source that shows the US directly killed 1 million people. The source you gave me doesn't even say 1 million died overall, it says 601,000 died overall.

This is perverted seeing of the world. You dont need to kill milions and spend billions to counter someones growing influence....

Firstly, it was hundreds of thousands, not millions so stop exaggerating. Second, you are right it is a terrible way to look at the world. Unfortunately we still live in a world where a nation must look at the world that way or risk being dominated by the nations who do see the world that way. Countering Iran's influence was just one objective of the war in Iraq, and it is a long term goal that we are still working on. That is why we are making sure the government in Iraq doesn't collapse. The other objective of the war was to draw Al'Qaeda into the open. We wanted to tie them down into one contained theater of operations where we could isolate and destroy them as an international terrorist organization. And if you look at the world now, our plan seems to have worked for the time being. Al'Qaeda's ability to operate internationally has been decimated and they no longer have a unified global command structure. They have been reduced to a few isolated splinter groups in a few nations, that only call themselves Al'Qaeda but do not coordinate with each other or share Al'Qaeda's original strategic objectives. They tried to rebuild as an international organization in Mali two years ago, but the French stomped that out pretty quick.
 
Considering that as of tomorrow I'll likely be in the United States Army, I am personally offended. I had no idea I was a rapist and serial murderer.

(for the record, I'm not taking a combat MOS)
 
I'll let you know if I kill myself.
 
Are you suggesting that we don't pay for the medical care and disability benefits for our soldiers who served honorably?

Whether he was suggesting it or not: Affirmative.

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Judge-rules-court-won-t-step-in-to-aid-vets-3207307.php
The federal government is subjecting veterans to long delays in obtaining mental health care and medical benefits, but the power to change the system rests with officials and Congress, not the courts, a federal judge in San Francisco ruled Wednesday in dismissing a lawsuit by veterans' advocates.

...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/02/va.gaming.appointments/

CNN) -- Military veterans are being denied health care due to "inappropriate scheduling practices" at VA facilities, according to an internal memo from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

The memo, written on April 26 {2010}, says employees at various VA facilities often canceled veterans' appointments with doctors in order to generate better performance scores in reports to supervisors.

http://www.nbcrightnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=8488254&nav=menu484_2_10

Women Veteran's Are Not Receiving Equal Health Care
Posted: Jun 13, 2008 2:46 PM EST Updated: Jun 14, 2008 3:05 AM EST

WASHINGTON - A study finds woman veterans aren't getting equal medical care at many Department of Veteran Affairs facilities.

A review of care mandated by congress found that at about one third of its VA facilities, the quality of outpatient care given to women wasn't as good as what was offered to men.

Right now U.S. Senator Patty Murray is sponsoring a bill pushing to better meet women veteran's health care needs.

"I have been hearing from so many women that they are not getting the best care, that often times they don't feel comfortable going to the VA," said U.S. Senator Patty Murray.

The study said the VA has made strides in improving care for women veterans, but it said more physicians need to be trained in women's care. Plus, centers need to provide more equipment to meet women's health care needs.
 
At this point I just want to say it breaks my heart when I think about what U.S. army and America in general meant for all those liberated in WWII, in fact for the whole world and what was Americas possibility and what I see it has steadily become.
 
Congratualations you have passed the teoretical side of the test. Now, if something is rejected in theory but is spread in practise it means its not all that totally unacceptable after all right? - Not that it gives me any joy....
You don't even understand what you're reading, right ?
No offence but your knowledge of the situation is underwhelming. There was no serious unrest in Crimea at all.
That's exactly my point. Glad to see you agree, and you shot down your own argument.
Look I have no illusion that you posses deep enough knowledge about international relations of the time and what diplomatic possition Russia and other participants were at that time so I take it as an uninformed oppinion.
Basically you can't answer anything so you try to switch to a personal attack to derail the point.
As you probably know Russia has a naval base in Sevastopol, Crimea and have had a treaty with Ukraine on how much troops it can deploy there at any time (I think it was topped at 26.000) and that number wasnt even surpassed in any phase of the so-called "invasion".
This point is so stupid and meaningless I'm not sure it's the argument you wanted to make.
 
You don't even understand what you're reading, right ?
You will have to be more specific here, but I guess dont bother....

That's exactly my point. Glad to see you agree, and you shot down your own argument.
I wasnt making an argument.:crazyeye:

Basically you can't answer anything so you try to switch to a personal attack to derail the point.
C´mon this wasnt an attack. Be honest about it. Do you really think Russia was going to beg someone to renegotiate some deals from time when it was cripled and on the bottom? IMHO, Russia wouldnt mind to opperate its navy from Ukrainian port for another 100 years. It was the hostile developments in Ukraine which pushed it to show force to protect its vital interests.

This point is so stupid and meaningless I'm not sure it's the argument you wanted to make.
mkay
 
You will have to be more specific here, but I guess dont bother....
By definition, if the proportion diminish, then it's not spreading, it's the opposite.
C´mon this wasnt an attack. Be honest about it. Do you really think Russia was going to beg someone to renegotiate some deals from time when it was cripled and on the bottom? IMHO, Russia wouldnt mind to opperate its navy from Ukrainian port for another 100 years. It was the hostile developments in Ukraine which pushed it to show force to protect its vital interests.
The vast majority of anti-Russian hostility has been created by Russia invading Crimea in the first place, so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, not a justification.
 
Whether he was suggesting it or not: Affirmative.

And you misunderstood my question. What I was asking was if he thinks we shouldn't pay for medical care and disability benefits for veterans. I asked that because he seems to think the money spent on the Iraq war was a waste and the article he posted stated the largest expense was for medical care and disability benefits for the veterans who served in the conflict.

So by saying the money spent on the war was a waste, he is essentially saying providing medical care for war veterans is a waste. That makes him a terrible person.

Also, I am very aware of the short-comings of the VA. I deal with them very frequently due to my own service-connected disability. I also think the US (both the government and the people) doesn't do nearly enough for its veterans, despite all the "support the troops" talk the average American likes to throw around. But that is a topic for another thread.
 
And you misunderstood my question. What I was asking was if he thinks we shouldn't pay for medical care and disability benefits for veterans. I asked that because he seems to think the money spent on the Iraq war was a waste and the article he posted stated the largest expense was for medical care and disability benefits for the veterans who served in the conflict.

So by saying the money spent on the war was a waste, he is essentially saying providing medical care for war veterans is a waste. That makes him a terrible person.
Bolded: It would appear so.
I don't think he was suggesting that, as of the current circumstance, the US should not pay for veteran medical care.

As for what the article says:
Bilmes said the United States has spent almost $2 trillion already for the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those costs, she said, are only a fraction of the ultimate price tag. The biggest ongoing expense will be providing medical care and disability benefits to veterans of the two conflicts.
Underlined: As of March 2013. This isn't directly stating that veteran expenses are the largest component of the $4-6 trillion figure, only the largest of the expenditures still being made in 2013 (Although they may have become or could become the greatest portion of some future figure).

If one assumes the stance that the Iraq War in question was unjustified on the part of the US, then yeah, all expenditures for the war itself are wasteful in that they should not have happened, ie that US soldiers should not have been expended/injured in the first place, thus obviating the need for quite a lot of the benefits in that hypothetical. If that is indeed Mechanical's position, maybe you should (seriously) challenge that.
 
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