Ukraine sold to Russia?

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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yanukovychs-secret-meeting-with-putin-raises-questions-of-customs-union-promise-333211.html
A secret meeting between Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in Sochi on Dec. 6 has fueled speculation as to whether a deal was made for Ukraine at a later date to join the Kremlin-led Customs Union.

Yanukovych stopped in Sochi on his way back to Ukraine from a three-day working visit to China, where he met with officials in hope of shoring up investment deals in order to stave off serious economic problems in Ukraine.

He and Putin met in the Black Sea resort city to discuss new agreements on "trade and economic cooperation in different economic spheres and preparation to the future Strategic Partnership Agreement," according to a statement released by the president's press service.

But the fact that the meeting was the fourth of its kind in recent weeks further fueled speculation that a plan had been hatched for Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union, which includes Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia. Armenia in recent weeks agreed also to join.

Prime Minister Mykola Azarov told journalists previously that the president would at some point soon visit Moscow, where a "major agreement" would be signed.

...

Ahead of Lucas' news, Arseniy Yatseniuk, leader of the Batkivschyna faction, warned that the signing by Yanukovych of any agreement aimed at joining Ukraine to the Customs Union will cause a second wave of mass protests here.

"Their attempts to sell Ukraine to Russia will not lead to anything except one thing, and we are officially warning you: if Viktor Yanukovych tries to sign any agreement aimed at joining Ukraine to the Customs Union, it will cause another wave of protests in Ukraine," he said. "No one will let Yanukovych sell the country."
I wonder if Putin will assist military if the protests get unmanageable.
 
I don't think it will go that far. The problem is Ukraine is very dysfunctional as a state, despite my deepest sympathies for their people and their European aspirations. It's a good sign that the current protests are not organized by political parties (which in Ukraine are invariably in the oligarchs' pockets), but activists and ordinary people, students and those who want a better future for their homeland.

Putin will not do anything, Ukraine is too big and too close to NATO for comfort.
 
Never mind that it is just the usual nonsense from those still fighting the Cold War.
 
"A top-secret meeting" sounds more dramatic :)
A secret meeting was mentioned by all major newspapers and TV channels, but who cares?
 
I think this thread can be merged into this one below:
Didn't know about it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10504098/Ukraine-protesters-topple-Lenin-statue-amid-huge-rally-in-central-Kiev.html
Pro-European demonstrators toppled the statue of Lenin, the founder of the Soviet Union, from its plinth in central Kiev on Sunday as record numbers flooded the city streets to demonstrate against government’s decision to pursue closer ties with Moscow at the expense of the West.

In jubilant scenes that dramatically demonstrated President Victor Yanukovich had lost control of the heart of the capital, the crowd pulled down the statue and took turns with a sledge hammer to smash its marble hulk to bits.

Sparks flew as each blow landed to a cacophony of cheers. A priest emerged from the throng with holy water and proceeded to bless the hammer as the mood hovered between euphoria and a frenzy of happiness.

Link to video.


Link to video.

I'm not sure this will fade out quietly.
 
History shows us that if statues begin to fall down is because something big is happening.
 
I really don't know anything about this. Why exactly are Ukrainians so enraged about joining a customs union?
 
I really don't know anything about this. Why exactly are Ukrainians so enraged about joining a customs union?

The dispute essentially boils down to whether Ukraine's future is primarily with the European Union or with Russia. The former has generally been favored by Ukrainians as the country's prosperity can be significantly boosted with more integration with the Common Market, though it comes at the cost of political, legal, and economic reforms (including adoption of multiple EU regulations) that are somewhat painful in the short-run. The biggest threat is change to domestic political power, as democratic reform is pushed heavily by Europe. Russia's offer is a mixture of bankrolling Ukraine, guarantees of security & political backing, and threats regarding natural gas.
 
Either way, carmen, they have to give up what little sovereignty they have left.
 
I really don't know anything about this. Why exactly are Ukrainians so enraged about joining a customs union?

Some people in Ukraine believe living standards there will be on a Switzerland level in a couple of years after joining EU. Just because of joining.
Some people want visa-free travel to EU countries.
Some want to work as plumbers in London instead of Moscow.
Some just don't want to associate themselves with anything Russian.

Russia also can't offer much except money. Protection from external threats - Ukraine doesn't need it much. As for living standards - they may drop, unless France and Germany will be eager to subsidize Ukraine economy as much as Russia is.
 
According to recent reports, the square with protesters is completely blocked by special forces and internal troops:

pic_df7333dd188fb921d4bc3aab3baf1c1d.jpg
 
I really don't know anything about this. Why exactly are Ukrainians so enraged about joining a customs union?

Because the "customs union" is the Kremlin's tool designed specifically to economically dominate Russia's former-Soviet puppet and thus solidify Russia's political control over them.

To join the customs union basically means rolling over and letting Kremlin rule your country. Fortunately, Ukraine isn't joining it just yet.

The Ukrainians are peed off by Yankuvych's sudden turn-around and reneging on the promise to continue forging closer ties with the EU, which in Ukraine is seen as a symbol of freedom, democracy, economic development and fair distribution of wealth. Not signing the Association Agreement with the EU (which was NOT about membership, but about free-trade, easier travel, economic assistance, and other things) is seen as a first step towards selling Ukraine to Russia.

Understandably, the people of Ukraine (well, it's western parts anyway) won't stand for it.

---

Now let's H-O-P-E the EU doesn't screw this up :please:

Some people in Ukraine believe living standards there will be on a Switzerland level in a couple of years after joining EU. Just because of joining.
Some people want visa-free travel to EU countries.
Some want to work as plumbers in London instead of Moscow.
Some just don't want to associate themselves with anything Russian.

Russia also can't offer much except money. Protection from external threats - Ukraine doesn't need it much. As for living standards - they may drop, unless France and Germany will be eager to subsidize Ukraine economy as much as Russia is.

Russia doesn't subsidize anybody except friendly oligarchs and sometimes regimes it absolutely wants not to fall. For ordinary Ukrainians, the Russian "subsidies" mean expensive gas and various trade embargoes on spurious health grounds constantly used by Moscow to make life for smaller countries difficult. Russia is simply using its role in Ukrainian economy (pretty much inherited from the Soviet times) to beat it down with and blackmail it into submission.

The EU, despite its financial difficulties, should step up and provide enough economic assistance to make things better for ordinary people (I'd much rather send money to Ukraine than to ungrateful Greece). But this means a pro-European government in Kiev needs to be in charge, the EU won't fund Yanukovych and his thugs - when he realized that, he ran to Putin instead.
 
Never mind that it is just the usual nonsense from those still fighting the Cold War.
Are you talking about the Russians. Europeans, or Ukrainians here?
I had the same question as carmen.
The fact that the Cold War is over, does not mean that conflicts (of interest or of more violent sort) between Russia and everybody else are over. Basically, what you wrote sounds like usual nonsense from someone who still thinks Yeltsin sits in Kremlin.
Russia has threatened to support a partitioning of Ukraine if it signs a landmark co-operation agreement with the European Union
Never mind threats to "toughen customs administration" - i.e. institute a trade embargo.
EDIT: Nah, even better article: http://www.spiegel.de/international...iations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html
 
@Yeekim: bp; dr Anyway, from the Grauniad:
Spoiler :
ukraine-riot-police-kiev-square-klitschko

Opposition leader Vitali Klitschko calls on women and children to leave Independence square

Independence square in Kiev

Cordons of riot police moved into central Kiev early on Monday afternoon in what appeared to be preparations by the Ukrainian government to regain control of Independence square and Kiev city hall, occupied by anti-government protesters for the past week.

The move comes after a week of protests against President Viktor Yanukovych's decision not to sign an integration pact with the EU, culminating in the biggest protest since the 2004 Orange Revolution on Sunday, when hundreds of thousands of people flooded central Kiev. The protest ended with the city's statue of Lenin toppled by protesters and attacked with hammers.

Yanukovych released a statement on Monday saying he supported the idea of an "all-nation round table" to include the country's three former presidents to find a solution to the political crisis. "Such a round table could lead to more understanding," said a statement from the presidential press service.

The EU's top diplomat, Catherine Ashton, will also arrive in Kiev on Tuesday. EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said she would try to help defuse "the very tense solution that Ukraine is living today".

As the riot police moved into the centre of town on Monday, a priest conducted a religious service from the stage, accompanied by chanting from the assembled crowd, a fraction of Sunday's masses but still numbering several thousand.

"It's the third time I'm here and I'm not afraid," said Bogdan Tsap, 66, from Stary Sambir in western Ukraine, standing by his tent. Several lines of riot police and interior ministry troops wearing helmets and holding shields blocked the roads leading to Independence square and city hall.

"We are here to keep order, we are not going to apply force," one of the officers near Independence square said, refusing to give his name. However, the Kyiv Post newspaper reported a "top government source" saying a decision has been taken to storm the square. Heavyweight boxer and Vitali Klitschko, one of the three main opposition leaders, called on women and children to leave the square as rumours spread that a storm could be imminent.

Three central metro stations were closed over apparent bomb threats, with rumours spreading among the protesters that the metro could be used to deliver soldiers into central Kiev.

The protesters have dug in at the square, with a hardcore of several hundred setting up a makeshift camp with tents, log fires and soup kitchens, while a large stage blasts pop music and speeches by opposition leaders. On Sunday, protest leaders gave Yanukovych 48 hours to fire his prime minister, and said if he did not they would march on his country residence. There have also been demands for snap parliamentary and presidential elections.

As the riot police rumours spread civilians were evacuated from City hall, which has become a makeshift dormitory for protesters since it was occupied a week ago, though hundreds later returned. A few people in hard hats manned barricades on the stairs.

It's on.
 
From that Der Spiegel article:
In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports
Reminds me of Sonny Forelli. 'I own you, Viktor. Those Ukrainians are mine to spend!'
Ukraine is dependent on Russian natural gas, and Moscow has already flexed its muscles by turning off supplies in the winter on three occasions.
Putin can destroy Ukraine…
The threats were also accompanied by promises. Putin held out the prospect of loans, lower gas prices and debt forgiveness with Russian energy giant Gazprom, to which Ukraine owes $1.3 billion.
…or just buy it.

I think that the EU leaders really underestimated Putin.



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Link for my Grauniad article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/09/ukraine-riot-police-kiev-square-klitschko
 
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