Ukraine sold to Russia?

EU needs to get rid of its geopolitical naivité. We're dealing with a regime and people who have decades upon decades of experience with cutthroat 'diplomacy' (or banditry, depending on your viewpoint). The likes of Putin won't respond to "soft" power; their gut reaction to that is to use hard power.

We should get ready for a serious confrontation with Russia.
 
I for one fully endorse the EU actually investing reasonable levels of GDP in defense, unifying its defense establishment, and ceasing to rely entirely upon American military muscle on the one hand while resenting it on the other.
 
Russia doesn't subsidize anybody except friendly oligarchs and sometimes regimes it absolutely wants not to fall.
Yes, I remember, because Russia is evil by definition :)
Providing gas for 40% of EU price (200$ instead of 500$), Russia subsidies Ukraine economy and industry. All Ukrainian people benefit from this, even if you don't like it.
 
Yes, I remember, because Russia is evil by definition :)
Providing gas for 40% of EU price (200$ instead of 500$), Russia subsidies Ukraine economy and industry. All Ukrainian people benefit from this, even if you don't like it.

According to the above linked Spiegel article Ukraine pays more for Russian gas than Germany for example. So right now the gas price reduction can be defined as the asset Putin wants to use to grab hold on Ukraine.

Ukrainian people benefit nothing from this in the long run.
 
Yes, I remember, because Russia is evil by definition :)
Providing gas for 40% of EU price (200$ instead of 500$), Russia subsidies Ukraine economy and industry. All Ukrainian people benefit from this, even if you don't like it.

Depends on the definition of evil. The current Russian regime is based on cynical exploitation of countless millions of people (especially Russians themselves) for the benefit of the precious few who bankroll Putin et al.

Some people may consider it evil, or at least immoral, yes.

If you read the article that was linked just a few posts ago, you'd know that Ukraine is actually paying more for gas than Germany; and gas isn't the only way Russia bullies Ukraine, especially its exports have been hit hard by Russian politically-motivated embargoes.
 
Yes, I remember, because Russia is evil by definition :)
Providing gas for 40% of EU price (200$ instead of 500$), Russia subsidies Ukraine economy and industry. All Ukrainian people benefit from this, even if you don't like it.
Hm.. The Spiegel article I linked to, says:
Everyone had expected the agreement to be signed, because it would have enabled the Ukrainians to liberate themselves, gas-wise, from the clutches of the Russians, especially as they now pay significantly more for Russian gas than major Western companies, such as German energy conglomerate RWE
From wiki:
Until 2005 Ukraine was charged $50 per 1,000 bcm; since then the price has risen to $426 per 1,000 bcm in 2012.[4] In January 2013 Ukraine paid $430 per 1,000 bcm.[11
EDIT: Lol, triple-ninjaed.
Anyway, nice to see people actually read the long version of my posts.
EDIT 2:
Ukraine imported 1.504 billion cubic meters of natural gas from Russia and Europe in April 2013, paying a total of $641.524 million, according to State Statistics Service data.

The vast majority of the imports came from Russia - 1.377 billion cubic meters worth $591.909 million. Ukraine also imported 127.426 million cubic meters of gas from Germany and Hungary worth $49.615 million.

It paid $430 per 1,000 cubic meters on average for gas from Russia and $389.40 per 1,000 cubic meters for gas from Europe.
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/158081.html
EDIT 3: More data for the sake of comparison:
All these factors led to Poland paying significantly more for gas ($526 for 1,000 cubic meters in H1 2012) than most other European countries, including Germany ($379 for 1,000 cubic meters), France ($394) and the United Kingdom ($313). Only Macedonians paid more for Russian gas ($564).
http://www.wbj.pl/article-64224-poland-overpaid-for-russian-gas-nik-report.html
The Russian gas giant Gazprom sold natural gas to the Baltic countries at an average price of 471.58 U.S. dollars per 1,000 cubic meters in the second quarter of this year.
http://news.postimees.ee/1352374/ga...tics-was-usd-472-per-1-000-cubic-meters-in-q2
 
Are you talking about the Russians. Europeans, or Ukrainians here?
I'm talking about comments such as this:

Putin will not do anything, Ukraine is too big and too close to NATO for comfort.

EU needs to get rid of its geopolitical naivité. We're dealing with a regime and people who have decades upon decades of experience with cutthroat 'diplomacy' (or banditry, depending on your viewpoint). The likes of Putin won't respond to "soft" power; their gut reaction to that is to use hard power.

We should get ready for a serious confrontation with Russia.

Depends on the definition of evil. The current Russian regime is based on cynical exploitation of countless millions of people (especially Russians themselves) for the benefit of the precious few who bankroll Putin et al.
The Cold War is over.
 
Yeap. But, to most of the world, Russia and the Soviet Union are not the same thing.
 
Russia is not evil. Its current ruling cadre is.
The current Russian regime is based on cynical exploitation of countless millions of people (especially Russians themselves) for the benefit of the precious few who bankroll Putin et al.
Guys, I heard that stuff too many times before. "Ordinary Americans are nice people, but their ruling capitalist and militarist elite exploit them and make them suffer."

Hm.. The Spiegel article I linked to, says:
Yes, it seems I was wrong. Lower price is not actual, but proposed.
 
It's a strawman to imply Winner is thinking in Cold War terms.

If I were, I'd be chanting "down with imperialist enemies of peace!" and waving little red flag while holding a banner saying "with the Soviet Union, forever!". Because that was kind of expected on our side of the Wall.
 
red_elk, you would do well to notice that only Formaldehyde is an 'Merican citizen here.
 
Guys, I heard that stuff too many times before. "Ordinary Americans are nice people, but their ruling capitalist and militarist elite exploit them and make them suffer."
Are you suggesting that the Russian government isn't bad, or that the Russian people are?

And I'd take that statement about Americans as a compliment. It seems quite a few people hate both the American government and the people.
 
Guys, I heard that stuff too many times before. "Ordinary Americans are nice people, but their ruling capitalist and militarist elite exploit them and make them suffer."
So, mr President became the richest man on Earth by living modestly and saving up his own meager salary (~80,000€ annually), rather than, say exploiting the resources of his country "a bit"?
 
According to the above linked Spiegel article Ukraine pays more for Russian gas than Germany for example. So right now the gas price reduction can be defined as the asset Putin wants to use to grab hold on Ukraine.

Ukrainian people benefit nothing from this in the long run.
Ukraine pays more for gas now due to historical issues.

The Russia–Ukraine gas disputes refer to a number of disputes between Ukrainian oil and gas company Naftogaz Ukrainy and Russian gas supplier Gazprom over natural gas supplies, prices, and debts. These disputes have grown beyond simple business disputes into transnational political issues—involving political leaders from several countries—that threaten natural gas supplies in numerous European countries dependent on natural gas imports from Russian suppliers, which are transported through Ukraine. Russia provides approximately a quarter of the natural gas consumed in the European Union; approximately 80% of those exports travel through pipelines across Ukrainian soil prior to arriving in the EU.[1]

A serious dispute began in March 2005 over the price of natural gas supplied and the cost of transit. During this conflict, Russia claimed Ukraine was not paying for gas, but diverting it intended to be exported to the EU from the pipelines. Ukrainian officials at first denied the accusation,[2][3] but later Naftogaz admitted that natural gas intended for other European countries was retained and used for domestic needs. The dispute reached a crescendo on 1 January 2006, when Russia cut off all gas supplies passing through Ukrainian territory.[4] On 4 January 2006, a preliminary agreement between Russia and Ukraine was achieved, and the supply was restored. The situation calmed until October 2007 when new disputes began over Ukrainian gas debts. This led to reduction of gas supplies in March 2008. During the last months of 2008, relations once again became tense when Ukraine and Russia could not agree on the debts owed by Ukraine.[5]

In January 2009, this disagreement resulted in supply disruptions in many European nations, with eighteen European countries reporting major drops in or complete cut-offs of their gas supplies transported through Ukraine from Russia.[6][7] In September 2009 officials from both countries stated they felt the situation was under control and that there would be no more conflicts over the topic,[8][9] at least until the Ukrainian 2010 presidential elections.[10] However, in October 2009, another disagreement arose about the amount of gas Ukraine would import from Russia in 2010. Ukraine intended to import less gas in 2010 as a result of reduced industry needs because of its economic recession; however, Gazprom insisted that Ukraine fulfill its contractual obligations and purchase the previously agreed upon quantities of gas.[11]

On June 8, 2010, a Stockholm court of arbitration ruled Naftogaz of Ukraine must return 12.1 billion cubic metres (430 billion cubic feet) of gas to RosUkrEnergo, a Swiss-based company in which Gazprom controls a 50% stake. Russia accused Ukrainian side of siphoning gas from pipelines passing through Ukraine in 2009.[12][13] Several high-ranking Ukrainian officials stated the return "would not be quick".[14]
This is just the latest negotiation in a matter which has been occurring since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It's a strawman to imply Winner is thinking in Cold War terms.
There is nothing "strawman" about his continuing incessant insinuations. He reacts the very same way to many matters concerning Russia, just like Yeekim does.

You can certainly argue that the price of natural gas should be deregulated and an international price set which everybody pays, unlike any other petroleum product. But this is just a longstanding business deal where Ukraine has stolen vast amounts of natural gas and defaulted on their agreements numerous times in the past.

Russian tanks aren't going to be storming into Kiev. But Gazprom may very well cut off their natural gas supply once more, as they have had to do in the past.
 
There is nothing "strawman" about his continuing incessant insinuations. He reacts the very same way to many matters concerning Russia, just like Yeekim does.

You can certainly argue that the price of natural gas should be deregulated, but this is just a longstanding business deal where Ukraine has stolen vast amounts of natural gas and defaulted on their agreements numerous times in the past.

The very fact both Winner and Yeekim talk of Ukraine as an independent state seems to contradict the suggestion that they are thinking in Cold War terms.
 
Are you suggesting that the Russian government isn't bad, or that the Russian people are?
I'm suggesting that the Russian government may be "bad", but what I read in this thread about it, is naive and cartoonish perception, very similar to Cold War propaganda from both sides, Soviet and American. Though somebody already said it.

So, mr President became the richest man on Earth by living modestly and saving up his own meager salary (~80,000€ annually), rather than, say exploiting the resources of his country "a bit"?
Richest man on Earth?
 
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