Ukraine sold to Russia?

The very fact both Winner and Yeekim talk of Ukraine as an independent state seems to contradict the suggestion that they are thinking in Cold War terms.
Is that right?


Might be a symptom of our actually knowing something about the issue... :dunno:
:lol:

I suggest you read the past numerous threads regarding Russia in this forum, especially the ones concerning South Ossetia. Or even the thread about the 2009 Gazprom matter concerning Ukraine.
 
Why don't you tell me again that the Cold War is over. I might have missed that, living in Central Europe, unlike you, being in the centre of events...
 
Richest man on Earth?
Well, forgive me for using a speculation for hyperbole's sake. It is, of course, not verifiable. And probably not true.
But mere fact that such speculations exist is quite telling alone ;)
And rather more verifiable fact about his watch collection being worth several years of his salary is another good hint.
 
Well, forgive me for using a speculation for hyperbole's sake.
Believe or not, some people may not fully support Putin's rule, or not support him at all. And in the same time, support his foreign policies, like boosting integration processes on post-Soviet space.
 
Russian tanks aren't going to be storming into Kiev. But Gazprom may very well cut off their natural gas supply once more, as they have had to do in the past.
Well, cutting off the gas supply is far more cost-efficient solution.
And, if done at a correct time and for a period long enough, potentially equally devastating.
Believe or not, some people may not fully support Putin's rule, or not support him at all. And in the same time, support his foreign policies, like boosting integration processes on post-Soviet space.
Oh, I believe you. There is also nothing intrinsically wrong about trying to (re)assert international standing of one's country. Problem is the way it is often done: i.e. threats of embargoes or even partitioning. Believe it or not, those do little to create trust or love.
 
Oh, I believe you. There is also nothing intrinsically wrong about trying to (re)assert international standing of one's country. Problem is the way it is often done: i.e. threats of embargoes or even partitioning. Believe it or not, those do little to create trust or love.

I think Russians would really profit from occasionally trying to distance themselves from their country's viewpoint and imagining how they would feel if somebody treated Russia the same way Russia treats its neighbours.

You know, the Golden Rule (and no, it isn't supposed to mean that the ones with the gold rule...).
 
You didn't understand my answer, your nationality doesn't matter.
Oh yes it does, because you're trying to paint us as the typical Ameridiots who start going on 'USA #1' wankfests. And no, we're not 'Mericans and we're not defending the USA. We haven't even brought them up. You did.
There is nothing "strawman" about his continuing incessant insinuations. He reacts the very same way to many matters concerning Russia, just like Yeekim does.
That's because their countries have been owned by Russia's predecessor state, the Soviet Union. Just because someone opposes the US doesn't amke them the good guys.
Formaldehyde said:
You can certainly argue that the price of natural gas should be deregulated, but this is just a longstanding business deal where Ukraine has stolen vast amounts of natural gas and defaulted on their agreements numerous times in the past.
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Russia wants to partition Ukraine and is blackmailing them with their gas debts to bully them back into their sphere.
 
That's because their countries have been owned by Russia's predecessor state, the Soviet Union. Just because someone opposes the US doesn't amke them the good guys.
So you are also still fighting the Cold War, while fabricating a strawman of my own views.

Once again, Russia no longer "opposes" the US.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Russia wants to partition Ukraine and is blackmailing them with their gas debts to bully them back into their sphere.
You mean you are "conveniently ignoring" that Russia might support Ukraine "partitioning" itself?

It looks to be already "partitioned":

Ukrainian%20election%20results%20map.jpg


And how exactly is trying to finally get payment for stolen and unpaid goods "bullying"?
 
I corrected it for you.
You don't know Russian history well, though you aren't supposed to. Ukraine and Belorussia weren't invaded, and the regions which were invaded (North Caucasus, Tatarstan) or colonized (Siberia), are part of Russia up until now.

Oh, I believe you. There is also nothing intrinsically wrong about trying to (re)assert international standing of one's country. Problem is the way it is often done: i.e. threats of embargoes or even partitioning. Believe it or not, those do little to create trust or love.
What Russia offers is (if I understand correctly) basically a big discount for gas prices in exchange for closer political integration. Otherwise Ukraine will have to pay the same price what the rest of Europe pays. Do you see something unfair or threatening in this offer? How this proposal should be changed, to become not a "threat of embargo"?
 
You don't know Russian history well, though you aren't supposed to. Ukraine and Belorussia weren't invaded, and the regions which were invaded (North Caucasus, Tatarstan) or colonized (Siberia), are part of Russia up until now.


What Russia offers is (if I understand correctly) basically a big discount for gas prices in exchange for closer political integration. Otherwise Ukraine will have to pay the same price what the rest of Europe pays. Do you see something unfair or threatening in this offer? How this proposal should be changed, to become not a "threat of embargo"?

Hehe, that is one way of saying it.
 
Oh yes it does, because you're trying to paint us as the typical Ameridiots who start going on 'USA #1' wankfests.
I'm neither calling anyone of you idiots nor think you are. During Cold War people honestly believed that the governments of the opposite side are "evil", but the people are good, they just need to overthrow their evil rulers and live free. In contemporary Russia such beliefs (about decadent oppressive capitalists) would mostly just give people a good laugh, but in the Western countries they are seem to be alive and well.
 
What Russia offers is (if I understand correctly) basically a big discount for gas prices in exchange for closer political integration. Otherwise Ukraine will have to pay the same price what the rest of Europe pays. Do you see something unfair or threatening in this offer? How this proposal should be changed, to become not a "threat of embargo"?
If I understand correctly, Ukraine is already paying more than the rest of Europe pays. And while it is on one hand being offered a discount, on another hand it is being threatened - amongst other things - with even higher prices or being cut off altogether if it does not behave.
 
So you are also still fighting the Cold War, while fabricating a strawman of my own views.

Once again, Russia no longer "opposes" the US.

I have a suspicion, that Russia never "opposed" the US even before, during, or after the cold war. They seemed pretty gung ho with only two nukes ever being used in an actual war. There "may be" other countries that have suffered from such a "crisis".
 
If I understand correctly, Ukraine is already paying more than the rest of Europe pays.
According to your citations, some EU countries pay more, some less. Ukraine pays significantly less than Poland or Macedonia for example.

And while it is on one hand being offered a discount, on another hand it is being threatened - amongst other things - with even higher prices or being cut off altogether if it does not behave.
In other words you see Russia offering a carrot and no evidence of stick. But you assume that Russia must be threatening Ukraine with something. Because, you know, its Russia!

A cut off happened once, when Ukraine refused to pay and started stealing gas bought by EU customers. I think the decision to cut off was right in such circumstances, wasn't it?
 
Just to play devil's advocate here, does anyone actually think Russia has some bizarro obligation to sell ANY natural gas to Ukraine (beyond what may have been already formally agreed to) at any price?

I'd rather see The Ukraine embrace the EU over Russia, sure, but I really cannot see how Russia is actually doing anything wrong by using its natural gas as a bargaining chip. It isn't like anyone has some sort of -right- to Russia's natural gas besides Russia itself.
 
According to your citations, some EU countries pay more, some less. Ukraine pays significantly less than Poland or Macedonia for example.
Yet significantly more than Germany or UK.
Just to play devil's advocate here, does anyone actually think Russia has some bizarro obligation to sell ANY natural gas to Ukraine (beyond what may have been already formally agreed to) at any price?
No. Rather, Ukraine is under obligation to buy it.
Early this week, an invoice was delivered to the Ukrainian government and Naftogaz, the country's national oil and natural gas company. It was sent by Russian energy giant Gazprom, and it read almost like a declaration of war: the Russians were demanding $7 billion for 16 billion cubic meters of natural gas -- which Ukraine hadn't even used. The principle at stake is "take or pay." According to a long-standing clause in Gazprom's supply agreement, customers are obligated to accept a contractually-agreed minimum quantity of natural gas, and even if the customer uses less, Moscow gets paid the full sum./.../Ukraine, a chronically cash-strapped key customer of the Russian company, is cutting down on gas imports. The "take or pay" contracts signed in 2009 foresaw annual deliveries of 41.6 billion cubic meters, but Kiev imported just 25.9 billion cubic meters in 2012. In 2013, it expects to import only 20 billion cubic meters.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/gazprom-gas-giant-is-running-into-trouble-a-881024.html
 
The landfill bought the broken septic tank. A fine addition I say!
 
Why don't you tell me again that the Cold War is over. I might have missed that, living in Central Europe, unlike you, being in the centre of events...


It's over as far as the US is concerned. Those Russian has-beens are no threat to us or our allies. If they can't let it go, that's on them. We just laugh at them.
 
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