Ukraine sold to Russia?

[Srdjan]

The reality, never mind your whitewashing and playing dumb, is that NO DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY is interested in ANY kind of "union" or "integration" with Russia. Guess why...

Interesting opinion. Tell me. What is Your opinion regarding ex-YU states? Are they democratic?

 

[red_elk]

Look, I'll make few simple statements.
1) Ukraine is, because of legacy infrastructure, mostly dependent on Russian gas. If Ukrainians do not get gas from Russia (or Gazprom, where Russia owns a controlling interest), they'll freeze to death. Literally.

Agree. Freeze to death is an overstatement, but economy will collapse.

2) Russia uses this comfortable bargaining position to demand gas prices that are higher than those asked from countries, who can actually choose whom to buy from. Gazprom being owned by Russian state, gas prices are also used to exert political pressure - i.e. they can lower price in return for concessions or ask for more if Ukraine needs being disciplined.

Generally agree too, competition reduce market prices. Russian influence is limited though, because if the prices for EU countries became significantly lower, Ukraine will just buy gas from EU instead.

3) Russia is also trying hard to stop Ukraine from developing alternate means to supply itself with gas from other sources.

Need examples here. If Russia uses diplomacy for that purpose, it seems pragmatical position to me. If Ukraine is threatened, with military force for example, that's another story. Anyway, is Ukraine really trying to break away with Russia, or just uses its convenient position between EU and Russia for maneuvering and receiving different kind of concessions from both? And what about polls showing that significant part of Ukrainians support integration with the Customs Union? Do you agree that Ukraine is divided by this "integration" issue?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Anyway, is Ukraine really trying to break away with Russia, or just uses its convenient position between EU and Russia for maneuvering and receiving different kind of concessions from both?

It is "convenient" for the oligarchy, which could be threatened in its wealth and power by Russian or EU-competition and perhaps it is also convenient for those Russian-minded Ukraine people employed in their industries in the south and east of Ukraine.
It is IMO hardly convenient for the country at large.

 

[Tee Kay]

Russia should be annexed by Ukraine.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The reality, never mind your whitewashing and playing dumb, is that NO DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY is interested in ANY kind of "union" or "integration" with Russia. Guess why...

Nor does modern Russia seem terribly interested in reacquiring the buffer zone the Soviets thought they needed from Europe to attempt to minimize the 22 million who died during WWI and WWII if there was a third such war. Guess why...

And there doesn't appear to be any attempt to form a "union" or "integration" with Russia. They merely suggested that they might support eastern Ukraine forming their own country.

 

[Tee Kay]

I love how you use the adverb "merely"

 

[red_elk]

It is "convenient" for the oligarchy, which could be threatened in its wealth and power by Russian or EU-competition and perhaps it is also convenient for those Russian-minded Ukraine people employed in their industries in the south and east of Ukraine.
It is IMO hardly convenient for the country at large.

Why getting preferences from both EU and Russia not good for the whole country?
It's pretty common behavior in politics and diplomacy.

They merely suggested that they might support eastern Ukraine forming their own country.

I'm starting to think that might be a good idea.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Why getting preferences from both EU and Russia not good for the whole country?

Because the actual benefit comes from finally picking the side one wants to economically entangle oneself with.
Russia says: If you pick the EU, you can't have a customs unions with us (and we will also not be friendly in other ways).
The Eu says: If you pick us, you get investment and EU money.
The status quo only helps to preserve the current oligarchy which to a large extend controls the country (owning TV stations, controlling members of parliament...). And the inability of the Ukraine to finally pick sides helps to preserve the status quo.

 

[Yeekim]

Generally agree too, competition reduce market prices. Russian influence is limited though, because if the prices for EU countries became significantly lower, Ukraine will just buy gas from EU instead.

Indeed. I was under impression, that the matter is not price, but chiefly infrastructure, but it appears that some existing connections could be engineered to enable "reverse flow" for relatively cheap price of 20 million €. Still, if EU countries are able to profit by selling Russian gas to Ukraine, it tells a few things about its current pricing policies.
I think this is a very good overview of the situation:
http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Alert_Ukraine_gas_01.pdf

Need examples here. If Russia uses diplomacy for that purpose, it seems pragmatical position to me. If Ukraine is threatened, with military force for example, that's another story. Anyway, is Ukraine really trying to break away with Russia, or just uses its convenient position between EU and Russia for maneuvering and receiving different kind of concessions from both? And what about polls showing that significant part of Ukrainians support integration with the Customs Union? Do you agree that Ukraine is divided by this "integration" issue?

Russia threatens economic sanctions, i.e. higher duties or outright bans on Ukrainian imports. Some claim it has already imposed a few, but I couldn't find anything substantive behind those claims. Ukraine is certainly divided over the issue, and while Russian position sure is pragmatic, does it really show that the Cold War is over and we're all just one big happy family, as certain people try to claim?

 

[Winner]

Really? By posting two maps?

Well since you're so intent on flouting your knowledge of 'history' I thought reminding you of it might help. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.

Do you, for starters, at least know when Ukraine and Belorussia existed as independent states, and could be invaded?

It's completely irrelevant whether they've been independent or not. They were repeatedly acquired by Russia by force, i.e. conquered.

My congratulations, great argument. Next level would be to call me a moron

That was implicit in that statement.

Come on, show everybody how civil and respectful you can be with people who have different opinion.

It's not about different opinions, it's about your utter inability to address what others are saying. You're acting very much like a typical Russian nationalist. Here's how that works.

Action A.

USA performs action A.
Russia: "Warmongering! Sabre-rattling! Disregard for national sovereignty! Economic exploitation! Cowboy diplomacy!"

Europe performs action A.
Russia: "Meddling into other countries affairs! Abuse of trade policy! Infringing on Russia's legitimate sphere of interests! Bribery!"

Russia performs action A.
Russia: "Legitimate defence of Russian interests. Standard trade negotiations with another country. Regional co-operation. Sovereign democracy. Peaceful diplomacy."

These can be no discussion with someone who isn't capable of admitting his country can do wrong.

Interesting opinion. Tell me. What is Your opinion regarding ex-YU states? Are they democratic?

Slovenia - perfectly. Croatia - yes. Bosnia - dysfunctionally, yes. Serbia - mostly yes. Kosovo - ethnic kleptocracy. Macedonia - mostly yes.

Your point is...?

Nor does modern Russia seem terribly interested in reacquiring the buffer zone the Soviets thought they needed from Europe to attempt to minimize the 22 million who died during WWI and WWII if there was a third such war. Guess why...

And there doesn't appear to be any attempt to form a "union" or "integration" with Russia. They merely suggested that they might support eastern Ukraine forming their own country.

Sigh. Please come back when you actually learn what we're talking about in this thread.

 

[red_elk]

Because the actual benefit comes from finally picking the side one wants to economically entangle oneself with.

When you finally pick the side, you won't be able to take benefit from both sides anymore. And Ukraine can't pick side easily, because it's divided.

Indeed. I was under impression, that the matter is not price, but chiefly infrastructure, but it appears that some existing connections could be engineered to enable "reverse flow" for relatively cheap price of 20 million €.

Well, looks like Ukraine is actually buying gas from Europe, so it's possible.

Ukraine is certainly divided over the issue, and while Russian position sure is pragmatic, does it really show that the Cold War is over and we're all just one big happy family, as certain people try to claim?

Some other people claim that the fact that we are not a big happy family is purely a Russia's fault.

It's completely irrelevant whether they've been independent or not. They were repeatedly acquired by Russia by force, i.e. conquered.

Of course it's completely irrelevant. Conquering territories of modern Ukraine and Belorussia from Poland or Lithuania or Turkey definitely qualified as forceful assimilation of Ukraine and Belorussia. Just relax.

That was implicit in that statement.

If calling me a moron is your preferred language, I can call you a dickhead and let's complete the discussion with this agreement. Looks like you are not going to say anything meaningful.

 

[Takhisis]

Interesting opinion. Tell me. What is Your opinion regarding ex-YU states? Are they democratic?

Sloveni(j)a, yes, Croatia and Serbia, yes to a degree, Bosnia, yes to a degree, Crna Gora/Montenegro… too early to tell, Republic-of-Albanians-whod-don't-want-to-join-Albania aka Kosovo, certainly not. Strong Party FTW.

Generally agree too, competition reduce market prices. Russian influence is limited though, because if the prices for EU countries became significantly lower, Ukraine will just buy gas from EU instead.

The Der Spiegel article mentioned earlier stated that gas would only arrive sometime around next September. So Ukraine is held hostage for all of this winter.

Do you agree that Ukraine is divided by this "integration" issue?

Unfortunately, Unitedstatesian views over this matter are confused because they think everyone living in Ukraine is an ethnic Ukrainian.

And there doesn't appear to be any attempt to form a "union" or "integration" with Russia. They merely suggested that they might support eastern Ukraine forming their own country.

'Merely'. What would you say if we dagos from South America joined with the cheese-eaters of France and the sausagemakers of Austria and Liechtenstein and decided that a few states could be taken off the US because they didn't vote for Obama?

 

[Winner]

'Merely'. What would you say if we dagos from South America joined with the cheese-eaters of France and the sausagemakers of Austria and Liechtenstein and decided that a few states could be taken off the US because they didn't vote for Obama?

Yep. One could show a map of the US divided between the red states and the blue states and claim that dividing it up along those lines is therefore perfectly okay. I.e. absurd non-logic.

More generally speaking, what right does Russia have to threaten neighbouring countries with territorial seizures?

 

[Formaldehyde]

'Merely'. What would you say if we dagos from South America joined with the cheese-eaters of France and the sausagemakers of Austria and Liechtenstein and decided that a few states could be taken off the US because they didn't vote for Obama?

Not sure what your point is with making ethnic slurs and eating habits about yourself and others...

But if you want to support a modern-day popular secession of the more backward states, despite those who advocate such measures are a small minority, go for it. Please. But I bet that Austria and Liechtenstein wouldn't be interested in the least, much less your own government.

There is obviously a major problem in Ukraine simply because a large minority still want to speak Russian. If they think they would be better off having their own country, instead of being discriminated against and oppressed, and they live to a great extent in the same areas where they are the majority of the citizens, why not? Doesn't that make far more sense than continuing to hate each other?

 

[red_elk]

Unfortunately, Unitedstatesian views over this matter are confused because they think everyone living in Ukraine is an ethnic Ukrainian.

The division is cultural rather than ethnic. You can't visually distinguish Russian and Ukrainian, they are different only in terms of language, traditions and self-definition. I myself have some direct ancestors of Ukrainian ethnicity.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

I'm surprised there's so much talk of the Russians being "evil" and "wrong" here.

The Russians are vigorpusly working to secure their abroad. No surprises there.


For some reason, since the end of the Cold War, the idea has really caught on that we've passed "the end" of geopolitics and that history is "over".

We've still only just begun I think.

 

[Tahuti]

Why are Russians...

so rich
so strong
such bad drivers
so rude
so badass

Source: Google Search Suggestions

 

[Goodfella]

You forgot "so good at chess."

 

[Tahuti]

I only get the 'good at chess' suggestion when I type 'Why are Russians so good'. I also get 'good at's about ballet and math, among other things.

For some reason, since the end of the Cold War, the idea has really caught on that we've passed "the end" of geopolitics and that history is "over".

We've still only just begun I think.

Well, geopolitics should never be treated as a science, even though it can be quite useful to draw perspectives. If geopolitics was actually considered a scientific discipline, it would either be totally non-empirical and thus right up there with homeopathy and astrology, or we would have destroyed ourselves in the name of science: "Hey, Mr. President, for an empirical geopolitical study, we want you to launch a few nukes at Russia to evaluate the geopolitical fallout. Would you be interested in helping us out?"

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

In this context I'm using geopolitics to refer to the "process" of what is happening rather than to the scientific study of politics between nations.

But I understand what you mean.